kasperhauser
pfm Member
Point of order, for those of us playing along with the home version:
Is the goal here photography, art, both, neither, whatever, or other?
Is the goal here photography, art, both, neither, whatever, or other?
[Photography] Raw-A-Week Mastering
- Thread starter matthewr
- Start date
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
kasper.
you've hit the nail on the head.
to me, good photography is always about art (and the occasional pretty girl). for the others here, i can not comment.
my rule is: if you wouldn't hang it in your living room, don't bother shooting it.
with matthew's picture (the one we did previously), i transformed it rather blatantly with the mirroring, but that is what it took to make something coherent and balanced out of all the nice little elements. the fine lines were left amputated by the framing (he really didn't have any choice) and horizontal flip/duplication created a nice ornamental effect, as well as providing a more wholistic perspective of the stimuli.
vuk.
Hmm, interesting stuff. Personally I think i've got a bit excited about the clouds blowing across the scene whilst some of the crops reducing the amount of sky end up working really well. I think the framing in 2 is my preference.
For comparison, the shot that I personally chose as my pick was this one:
http://www.loftsoft.co.uk/pictures/CRW_9473.jpg
Again mainly because of the sky - I rarely do long exposure, and rarely in a bright city giving these sorts of cloud shapes.
As for colour vs B&W it's a bit of a mixed bag for me. I want it to be colour, but can't seem to get a mix which is convincing.
Cesare
For comparison, the shot that I personally chose as my pick was this one:
http://www.loftsoft.co.uk/pictures/CRW_9473.jpg
Again mainly because of the sky - I rarely do long exposure, and rarely in a bright city giving these sorts of cloud shapes.
As for colour vs B&W it's a bit of a mixed bag for me. I want it to be colour, but can't seem to get a mix which is convincing.
Cesare
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
My problem with this image is that I really struggle to see anything in it. The composition is problematic for a number of reasons most notably as it lacks a subject and yet is not an attractive or compelling enough as an overall image to work in the "subjectless" manner that some pictures do.
The second major problem is the sodium lighting which is not only awful but hard-to-fix awful. Sodium @ night = noise and the other problem here in particular is that lots of the noise is concentrated in the blue channel which limits options for B&W conversions (any filter options that promote the blue and you get dirty blotches instead of clouds) and especially makes "sexing up" the sky hard. The uninteresting sky is especially problematic here as well given how lacking in interst the picture is overall.
So when I was looking at the picture working out what to do with it my overall reaction was a sense of struggling against the picture to try and make an image I liked. I figured everyone else would have similar struggles and so what we were going to see would be a lot of B&W conversions (easiest way to fix the colour) and some crazy colour treatments looking to wrangle something good out of the image. I even tried some cross-processing type looks myself although its not something I care for generally and its hard to do without it being naff or just horrible.
In the end I did make a 'roided up' colour version (shown below) where I tried to make something looked like how I imagined it looked like if you where there (i.e vaguely like a night scene) and then rachet up the contrast and general funkyness. Utlimately I didn't think this worked and went with a B&W version.
Cropping I think is essential for this picture as you have that horrible wall on the left and also the cropping helps to emphasise the lighthouse and lights more so that start to form more of a subject and focus. Indeed overall my reaction to the picture was that if there was a picture here it was probably 200 yards further along so the lighthouse (which looks like an interesting sort of building, especially at night) was much more of a focal point.
Of the crops I agree with Vuk that #2 is far and away the most successful as it maximises the effect of the diagonals and perspective and I like how it looks like it lowered the viewpoint so it gets more dramatic. Indeed #2 I think is my favoured version by some distance.
Overall though looking at the various versions I get the impression of everyone battling against the picture rather than working with it. Ultimately one can see why, despite having some aspects that one might use again in much better pictures, Cesare rejected it.
Matthew
The second major problem is the sodium lighting which is not only awful but hard-to-fix awful. Sodium @ night = noise and the other problem here in particular is that lots of the noise is concentrated in the blue channel which limits options for B&W conversions (any filter options that promote the blue and you get dirty blotches instead of clouds) and especially makes "sexing up" the sky hard. The uninteresting sky is especially problematic here as well given how lacking in interst the picture is overall.
So when I was looking at the picture working out what to do with it my overall reaction was a sense of struggling against the picture to try and make an image I liked. I figured everyone else would have similar struggles and so what we were going to see would be a lot of B&W conversions (easiest way to fix the colour) and some crazy colour treatments looking to wrangle something good out of the image. I even tried some cross-processing type looks myself although its not something I care for generally and its hard to do without it being naff or just horrible.
In the end I did make a 'roided up' colour version (shown below) where I tried to make something looked like how I imagined it looked like if you where there (i.e vaguely like a night scene) and then rachet up the contrast and general funkyness. Utlimately I didn't think this worked and went with a B&W version.
Cropping I think is essential for this picture as you have that horrible wall on the left and also the cropping helps to emphasise the lighthouse and lights more so that start to form more of a subject and focus. Indeed overall my reaction to the picture was that if there was a picture here it was probably 200 yards further along so the lighthouse (which looks like an interesting sort of building, especially at night) was much more of a focal point.
Of the crops I agree with Vuk that #2 is far and away the most successful as it maximises the effect of the diagonals and perspective and I like how it looks like it lowered the viewpoint so it gets more dramatic. Indeed #2 I think is my favoured version by some distance.
Overall though looking at the various versions I get the impression of everyone battling against the picture rather than working with it. Ultimately one can see why, despite having some aspects that one might use again in much better pictures, Cesare rejected it.
Matthew
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
matthew.
well expressed. doing this picture, i kept wondering whether or not this is such a good idea: we're sort of asking for pictures people aren't entirely happy with and hence the "struggle" you describe.
an idea i have had is to pick a theme of some sort and then have anyone interested try to take the best picture possible within it. it seems a more worthwhile and creative enterprise to pour one's energy into than trying to remaster someone else's so-so shot, although that can be fun once in a while.
what does the gang think?
vuk.
p.s. i did #8, wasn't really happy with the thing as a whole, then came up with radical #4 as an option that would satisfy me aesthetically.
well expressed. doing this picture, i kept wondering whether or not this is such a good idea: we're sort of asking for pictures people aren't entirely happy with and hence the "struggle" you describe.
an idea i have had is to pick a theme of some sort and then have anyone interested try to take the best picture possible within it. it seems a more worthwhile and creative enterprise to pour one's energy into than trying to remaster someone else's so-so shot, although that can be fun once in a while.
what does the gang think?
vuk.
p.s. i did #8, wasn't really happy with the thing as a whole, then came up with radical #4 as an option that would satisfy me aesthetically.
Tony L
Administrator
I was 10; tiny crop and rotate, colour balance and a bit of curves (Cartman to taste). Having seen everyone else's I'd have gone black and white - I didn't as I thought everyone else would.
Perhaps for the next one it might be better if we just publish independently as ourselves, I don't think the secrecy thing adds anything to the thread at all - I still don't know who did which with the first pic. I'd certainly find it more use if we just show what we did and explain the techniques / rational behind it. I'm interested to learn, but have never had any interest in competition.
Tony.
Perhaps for the next one it might be better if we just publish independently as ourselves, I don't think the secrecy thing adds anything to the thread at all - I still don't know who did which with the first pic. I'd certainly find it more use if we just show what we did and explain the techniques / rational behind it. I'm interested to learn, but have never had any interest in competition.
Tony.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Vuk -- I don't think we want problematic pictures particularly but neither do we need people to submit really excellent ones or particular favourites. We just need are pictures that having something interesting about them and allow some scope for doing different things.
The other thing I would say at this point is that I viewed this as an excercise that kind of started after we had published the pictures and the point was for people engage with the why and the what and the how. I think I have go a lot better as a photographer over the last two years (after many years treading water) precisely because I have engaged more with these sorts of discussions and though processes and, although it can be difficult, I really think it can be very useful.
Instead though people seem to view the "big reveal" as the end of the process beyond a post saying something as limited as "1, 7 and 10 are best" so I am not sure quite how valuable it is. Indeed it seems to be in danger of descending into a sort of e-peen thing.
Incidentally, Jawed told me a story the other day about his time on a well known street photography list where they had a similar idea to your proposal and where the winning entry got to propose the subject for the following week (but also had to provide commentary on all the images). Jawed and his photo buddy Gary had long been hacked off with the list members who refused to see anything other than B&W for street pictures so when Gary won one week he picked the subject as "Yellow"
The other thing I would say at this point is that I viewed this as an excercise that kind of started after we had published the pictures and the point was for people engage with the why and the what and the how. I think I have go a lot better as a photographer over the last two years (after many years treading water) precisely because I have engaged more with these sorts of discussions and though processes and, although it can be difficult, I really think it can be very useful.
Instead though people seem to view the "big reveal" as the end of the process beyond a post saying something as limited as "1, 7 and 10 are best" so I am not sure quite how valuable it is. Indeed it seems to be in danger of descending into a sort of e-peen thing.
Incidentally, Jawed told me a story the other day about his time on a well known street photography list where they had a similar idea to your proposal and where the winning entry got to propose the subject for the following week (but also had to provide commentary on all the images). Jawed and his photo buddy Gary had long been hacked off with the list members who refused to see anything other than B&W for street pictures so when Gary won one week he picked the subject as "Yellow"
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
matthew.
"contamination" is not a problem for me. i think we should try just posting directly--and perhaps the objective shouldn't just be straightforward processing, but doing whatever is necessary to show what photo and scene had to offer (sort of like mick's effort). this would seem more educational to me than how to get the white balance just right so people with night-calibrated super-monitors don't make fun of you.
i still prefer the theme a week take a photo, because i feel choosing content for this is tough (according to you, i failed miserably with cesare's pic). just for the sake of argument, is there anything in here (which i proposed earlier) you think would be worthwhile:
http://vukfoto.com/misc/f01/
vuk.
"contamination" is not a problem for me. i think we should try just posting directly--and perhaps the objective shouldn't just be straightforward processing, but doing whatever is necessary to show what photo and scene had to offer (sort of like mick's effort). this would seem more educational to me than how to get the white balance just right so people with night-calibrated super-monitors don't make fun of you.
i still prefer the theme a week take a photo, because i feel choosing content for this is tough (according to you, i failed miserably with cesare's pic). just for the sake of argument, is there anything in here (which i proposed earlier) you think would be worthwhile:
http://vukfoto.com/misc/f01/
vuk.
Rack Kit
pfm Member
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
tony.
like that great artist matthew brought up a little while ago, mick telephoned in his precise instructions.
surprisingly enough, ian did #7.
vuk.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Vuk -- The slight problem with your pictures is many of us have a strong sense of your aesthetic and the sort of things you are trying to do in your pictures which brings a different set of problems to the process.
But maybe you are right and the process just doesn't work that well and we have taken it as far as we can.
But maybe you are right and the process just doesn't work that well and we have taken it as far as we can.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
This is going on the poster for my forthcoming one man show
now i know how they edit stuff for DVD jackets at the rental shop.
vuk.
