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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+3)?

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stevec67 said:
I just might. I've lived in France before and found it very democratic. If I need to I can leave you behind, secure in your sunlit Brexit uplands with your navy blue passport that you can no longer afford to use.
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You don't get to escape that easily. I'm here and the only 2 Brits I have met here so far are Brexiteers. One of them works for the European Court of Human Rights too.
 
HydeLea said:
You're dreaming mate !

We've voted, the result is in, get over it you bunch of remoaning remainiacs :)

If you don't like it I suggest you all p1ss off and live in France or somewhere equally un-democratic !
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Now who's dreaming.

This fantasy with no substance, no solutions and nothing but damage is gradually unwinding. Oh we all know that it will be everyone else's fault except those who voted for it. But c'est la vie. :)
 
SteveS1 said:
Oh we all know that it will be everyone else's fault except those who voted for it.....
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I'm afraid it is, Steve. It is entirely the fault of successive generations of politicians here, in Europe and within the institutions of the EU who repeatedly refused to acknowledge the concerns of the electorates as to the style and the direction of the EU, to the progressive loss of self-determination and its replacement with top-down regulation and a sense of impotence in the face of anonymous and unnaccountable élites in the EU institutions, the banking and money markets and the global corporates, all of whom increasingly call the shots. You know this.
 
eternumviti said:
I'm afraid it is, Steve. It is entirely the fault of successive generations of politicians here, in Europe and within the institutions of the EU who repeatedly refused to acknowledge the concerns of the electorates as to the style and the direction of the EU, to the progressive loss of self-determination and its replacement with top-down regulation and a sense of impotence in the face of anonymous and unnaccountable élites in the EU institutions, the banking and money markets and the global corporates, all of whom increasingly call the shots. You know this.
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I'm afraid it isn't ET, it is mostly a willingness to buy the narrative that everything we have, we would have anyway and everything we don't like is the fault of the EU. The main players feeding them this and the non-stop immigration scaremongering will of cause be non-dom, non-UK tax paying media barons and their representatives.

I notice that the solution beginning to gain traction to the inevitable shortage of migrant workers affecting agriculture is that UK benefits are too high. Imagine how this vote might have gone had that been the accompanying strapline to reducing immigration. LOL

Notional Sovereignty over a reducing economy, it's never going to satisfy anyone. Fortunately the signs are some are beginning to smell the coffee.
 
This all goes back much further and deeper than non-dom media barons, though have it your way if you will. I don't swallow any of it, much as I may feel contempt for media barons, non-dom, tax dodging or otherwise. It anyway makes little difference to my point, and that is that the politicos here and abroad refused to acknowledge and respond to the rising sense of unease, and they did so repeatedly and consistently over many years.

On the matter of agricultural workers, I spoke to a farmer friend the other day - he too is finding it very difficult to hire workers. The reason for the shortage, as given by the agency he uses, has nothing to do with Brexit. It is because the rising economies in countries like Poland are now offering job opportunities and pay rates that compete with those on offer here, so there is simply no need for them to look for work elsewhere. On this matter at least, the anti-Brexit propaganda conceals a more prosaic truth.

Incidentally, there are apparently more people originating in other EU member countries living in the UK now than there were in June 2016.
 
eternumviti said:
On the matter of agricultural workers, I spoke to a farmer friend the other day - he too is finding it very difficult to hire workers. The reason for the shortage, as given by the agency he uses, has nothing to do with Brexit. It is because the rising economies in countries like Poland are now offering job opportunities and pay rates that compete with those on offer here, so there is simply no need for them to look for work elsewhere. On this matter at least, the anti-Brexit propaganda conceals a more prosaic truth.
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Where do you get this stuff? I don't know where your farmer friend is or what he's paying, but the factory where I am currently based (Buckinghamshire) is full of E Euro workers. They work well and are happy enough. If you like I can check with the Polish chap on the other side of the desk as to whether he can earn as much in Poland. I know the answer already, but I can ask. We're also getting a lot of Romanians and somewhat surprisingly Spanish. There's also a French guy with the strongest Marseille accent that I have ever heard, including in Marseille.

Incidentally, there are apparently more people originating in other EU member countries living in the UK now than there were in June 2016.
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Thats interesting and rather negates your earlier assertion. We have a lot of Romanians here and I know that they are the second most populous group of intra-EU immigrants currently in the UK.
 
eternumviti said:
This all goes back much further and deeper than non-dom media barons, though have it your way if you will. I don't swallow any of it, much as I may feel contempt for media barons, non-dom, tax dodging or otherwise. It anyway makes little difference to my point, and that is that the politicos here and abroad refused to acknowledge and respond to the rising sense of unease, and they did so repeatedly and consistently over many years.

On the matter of agricultural workers, I spoke to a farmer friend the other day - he too is finding it very difficult to hire workers. The reason for the shortage, as given by the agency he uses, has nothing to do with Brexit. It is because the rising economies in countries like Poland are now offering job opportunities and pay rates that compete with those on offer here, so there is simply no need for them to look for work elsewhere. On this matter at least, the anti-Brexit propaganda conceals a more prosaic truth.

Incidentally, there are apparently more people originating in other EU member countries living in the UK now than there were in June 2016.
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You talk of the 'rising sense of unease' but don't wish to acknowledge how that is fed. Mostly with mis-information and latterly, outright lies. Not much one can do with that, it's your choice.

Re- the labour shortages, I'm sure there will be lots of excuses just as when inward investment falls and companies move - it will be everyone else's fault. :)

I've never claimed the EU is how I would like it. Merely that leaving it, especially without realistic options, will be ruinously counter productive and set us back years. Nothing about the attempted cherry picking or hopeless assertions that we should still enjoy benefits without contribution has so far changed my view.
 
eternumviti said:
On the matter of agricultural workers, I spoke to a farmer friend the other day - he too is finding it very difficult to hire workers. The reason for the shortage, as given by the agency he uses, has nothing to do with Brexit. It is because the rising economies in countries like Poland are now offering job opportunities and pay rates that compete with those on offer here, so there is simply no need for them to look for work elsewhere. On this matter at least, the anti-Brexit propaganda conceals a more prosaic truth.
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Where there are shortages of itinerant EU workers it is due to various factors: improving economics in r/EU (let's leave that!), the don't feel welcome any more effect, etc.
 
eternumviti said:
I'm afraid it is, Steve. It is entirely the fault of successive generations of politicians here, in Europe and within the institutions of the EU who repeatedly refused to acknowledge the concerns of the electorates as to the style and the direction of the EU, to the progressive loss of self-determination and its replacement with top-down regulation and a sense of impotence in the face of anonymous and unnaccountable élites in the EU institutions, the banking and money markets and the global corporates, all of whom increasingly call the shots. You know this.
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Except that it isn't. Brexit was all about immigration and the lies in the gutter press about straight bananas, overflowing schools and hospitals being the result of immigrants, and all the rest. As for "banking and money markets and the global corporates, all of whom increasingly call the shots", do you think that this is going to stop or go into reverse if and when we leave the EU? If you do then you are more naive than I give you credit for.
 
There may well be quite a lot of people returning to Poland because Poland now offers more than it did. Why would you even bother arguing against it, other than you don't want to agree with anything a eurosceptic says for some reason.

You can't compare UK wages with Polish wages in cash terms, and you discredit your other points by trying to. There will be plenty of Poles willing to take a drop in real income by returning home if it means they can live a more comfortable life then they could before they left.

The GDP per capita and wage figures here back this up, the wage figure is a real eye opener:

https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/gdp-per-capita
https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/wages

An then the UK rise is:
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/wages

What EV says makes total sense.
 
So Poles are returning to Poland in large numbers because 'Poland now offers more than it did' ? Isn't that evidence that the EU 4 freedoms work, enrich different countries at different times but that over a longer period are self-balancing ?
 
stevec67 said:
Except that it isn't. Brexit was all about immigration and the lies in the gutter press about straight bananas, overflowing schools and hospitals being the result of immigrants, and all the rest. As for "banking and money markets and the global corporates, all of whom increasingly call the shots", do you think that this is going to stop or go into reverse if and when we leave the EU? If you do then you are more naive than I give you credit for.
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Of course, I almost forgot, everyone who voted out of the EU is a thickuneducatedforeignerhatingmasturbatingmailreadingxenophobicfacisisticfullypaidupmemberoftheedf, and I am one of them. Silly me.

It has nothing to do with me being naive about the power of the corporates and so on post-Brexit, its about what very many people actually feel. People feel as if they have no control over their destinies, that its has all been taken over by vast, remote, unaccountable organisations, amongst which are Whitehall and Westminster, the EU, the bankers and the corporates. That is the way it is.
 
eternumviti said:
Of course, I almost forgot, everyone who voted out of the EU is a thickuneducatedforeignerhatingmasturbatingmailreadingxenophobicfacisisticfullypaidupmemberoftheedf, and I am one of them. Silly me.
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Present company excepted, but we all know immigration was a big driver. We know the demographics and how they voted, it's not rocket science.

It has nothing to do with me being naive about the power of the corporates and so on post-Brexit, its about what very many people actually feel. People feel as if they have no control over their destinies, that its has all been taken over by vast, remote, unaccountable organisations, amongst which are Whitehall and Westminster, the EU, the bankers and the corporates. That is the way it is.
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Yes, and taking the EU out of that list will do SFA to "what very many people actually feel."
 
wacko said:
So Poles are returning to Poland in large numbers because 'Poland now offers more than it did' ? Isn't that evidence that the EU 4 freedoms work, enrich different countries at different times but that over a longer period are self-balancing ?
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Indeed it is. The 4 freedoms are noble in theory, but there are practical and emotional realities as well as the obvious advantages.

Personally, I believe in two things in this regard. Freedom of movement, and sovereign control of national borders. The first cannot be absolute, the second has to be.
 
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