Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+24)?

[Colin L]

My argument is that the tariffs are not geared for UK benefits and the £1.6 billion collected goes into the EU coffers to subsidise our competitors.

As has been stated many times before, you view the EU as a zero-sum game. That’s not the way it works. You surely have heard the expression in economics “a rising tide lifts all boats”.

As an expert in the Black-Scoles equation this is meat and drink to you.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

My argument is that the tariffs are not geared for UK benefits and the £1.6 billion collected goes into the EU coffers to subsidise our competitors.

There are two points there (neither of which relates to your oranges/Japanese cars point, either BTW). First, these are EU tariffs, so where else would they go? Second, the 'EU coffers' is a big and diverse pot. It may, perhaps, subsidise the setting up of a manufacturing plant elsewhere, but it might equally go to a regeneration project in the Rhondda, or large scale civil engineering work in the North East. So to conflate the collection of tariffs with subsidising our competitors is a bit of a stretch.

And then there's the question of foreign aid. Some EU subsidies, perhaps, for example, the car plant in Turkey, might well come under the heading of 'foreign aid'. The UK also does foreign aid, 0.7% of our GDP last time I checked. Most developed nations do. You have to look not just at the bald figures, but the objectives. It is conjecture on my part (CBA to check) but it does seem to me to be at least plausible that the rationale for the Turkey car plant was to create jobs in Turkey, to raise living standards, and reduce migration across the EU's southern border. That might, in the grand scheme of things, be of greater value to the community as a whole than the jobs associated with the car plant.

My point, really, being that it's not black and white, and painting it as such doesn't help.

 

[gavreid]

Good. First the former is a massive assumption, second he won't be rewarded for that.

They're behind Labour in the most recent polls and reaction yesterday to his win will have been very disappointing for him

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...0845f89e312c3c#block-5d371f718f0845f89e312c3c

 

[gavreid]

Labour is talking this morning to Tory MPs opposed to a no-deal Brexit about whether they would support the opposition in a vote of no confidence

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...0845f89e3133c9#block-5d38180d8f0845f89e3133c9

 

[TheDecameron]

Labour is talking this morning to Tory MPs opposed to a no-deal Brexit about whether they would support the opposition in a vote of no confidence

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...0845f89e3133c9#block-5d38180d8f0845f89e3133c9

You’ll have to subtract the Gammon Labour MPs who’ll vote with the Tories to prevent a VoC working.

 

[stephen bennett]

I'm just so hoping Johnson isn't minded to call an immediate GE. There is no doubt in my mind that his stock will wane as he has to choose who to piss off. If he calls one now, he will get peak honeymoon and that represents by far the biggest threat. With any luck his usual hubris will lead him into thinking it's all on without bothering.

The Brexit company would split the leave vote. I think he'll go for a GE straight after we leave in October and, I suspect, win a majority.

Five years of a Johnson Government inheriting a Brexit-related economic situation he can use to his advantage to strip the state dry. Austerity ++++.

By 2025 it won't matter if Labour get in. The post-war social contract will be dead in the water.

These people are in the ascendent now. Brexit has been the enabler. It's not as if we were not warned of the consequences of a leave vote.

Stephen

 

[Joe]

You surely have heard the expression in economics “a rising tide lifts all boats”.

.

And then there is the expression " the Devil take the hindmost "

A rising tide is generally the rich getting richer and the poor staying right where they are and so drowning.

 

[gavreid]

You’ll have to subtract the Gammon Labour MPs who’ll vote with the Tories to prevent a VoC working.

A botched attempt would be a serious mistake at this point, especially as there doesn't seem to be a strong appetite for a GE.

 

[TheDecameron]

The Brexit company would split the leave vote. I think he'll go for a GE straight after we leave in October and, I suspect, win a majority.

Five years of a Johnson Government inheriting a Brexit-related economic situation he can use to his advantage to strip the state dry. Austerity ++++.

By 2025 it won't matter if Labour get in. The post-war social contract will be dead in the water.

These people are in the ascendent now. Brexit has been the enabler. It's not as if we were not warned of the consequences of a leave vote.

Stephen

Yes, I watched badly off people in the former Notts coalfield interviewed on C4 News last night saying they liked Johnson’s optimism and he was the man to get us back to being a proud nation again and I marvelled at how easy it is to get people to vote against their own interests. I wonder how long it will take for the penny to drop- by which time as you point out, it’ll be far too late, “there’s no money left” will be Boris’s farewell note to the nation.

 

[notaclue]

I think Johnson has no workable plan and will make a giant mess.

Dominic Cummings is to become a senior advisor apparently!

I'd be very surprised if this doesn't end up as a disastrous Government. The only thing I can see it achieving by Oct 31st is either collapse and election or a messy/half-mistaken 'no deal' by default.

And very good here...

"Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
2018: Priti Patel resigns for conducting her own foreign policy: “I fell below the high standards that are expected of a Secretary of State.”
*brief interlude*
2019: she becomes a more senior Secretary of State.
This wouldn’t happen in any other walk of life."

 

[TheDecameron]

I think Johnson has no workable plan and will make a giant mess.

Dominic Cummings is to become a senior advisor apparently!

I'd be very surprised if this doesn't end up as a disastrous Government. The only thing I can see it achieving by Oct 31st is either collapse and election or a messy/half-mistaken 'no deal' by default.

And very good here...

"Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
2018: Priti Patel resigns for conducting her own foreign policy: “I fell below the high standards that are expected of a Secretary of State.”
*brief interlude*
2019: she becomes a more senior Secretary of State.
This wouldn’t happen in any other walk of life."

There’s so much talk of how he’s boxed in and how challenging it will be for him. Someone in government in Scotland made a more chilling observation of where they think he’ll go next- he will do nothing and wait for Halloween.

 

[gavreid]

There’s so much talk of how he’s boxed in and how challenging it will be for him. Someone in government in Scotland made a more chilling observation of where they think he’ll go next- he will do nothing and wait for Halloween.

What else is there, summer recess, conference season and then 5 or 6 weeks tops...

 

[Lee T]

The Brexit company would split the leave vote. I think he'll go for a GE straight after we leave in October and, I suspect, win a majority.

Five years of a Johnson Government inheriting a Brexit-related economic situation he can use to his advantage to strip the state dry. Austerity ++++.

By 2025 it won't matter if Labour get in. The post-war social contract will be dead in the water.

These people are in the ascendent now. Brexit has been the enabler. It's not as if we were not warned of the consequences of a leave vote.

Stephen

PFM has become the guy standing with the end of the world is nigh placard around his neck.

A majority Tory government under Boris, oh come on now, at least make your predictions within the realms of reality.

Even the vote was closer than many expected, considering Boris's fantastical claims.

 

[eternumviti]

Sue P-T

We were discussing around the point of you having heard absolutely no compelling argument to pursuade you of any positive attribute of Brexit. I said that this was probably because we were arguing about different things, my case against the EU revolving around ethics and morality, whilst yours for UK membership was predicated upon economics.

Not really. My ethics include being, and contributing to, part of a greater whole, and a wider community. The economics has always been secondary, and mainly a concern for the plight of those who will be hit hard. That’s ethics too, come to think of it.

Your ethics stem from an unshakable belief in the incurable rot at the core of the EU. Not sharing that belief is where we differ, and it’s a tad arrogant to claim that you have the monopoly on ethics.

I claim no monopoly.

Is the democratic vaccum throughout the EU institutions ethical? Is the corruption, the cronyism and the nepotism ethical? Is the grandstanding by, and the special tax and benefit breaks for, the Brussels 'élite' ethical? Is the cosying up to the global corporations ethical? Is the 3% and their 12% of useful idiots deployed to terrify or numb into submission the 40% ethical? Is the building of an armed empire without the consent of the people ethical? Is the built-in iniquity of the Euro in favour of German industry and illegal surplus ethical? The special dispensation given to France and Germany on the matter of deficits and surpluses? The evisceration of Greece, the technocratic takeover of Italy & Spain, the pregnant silence over Catalonia, the hounding of France and Ireland, and now of the UK? Are the razor-wire and the armed guards all around the EU's east and south-facing landward and seaward borders ethical?

I think this is a critique of geopolitics and globalism generally. The EU is no more egregious in my view than, say, the USA, and considerably better than many places. I fear you are in danger of letting the best be the enemy of the good (or at least, the ideals be the enemy of the least bad).

I think that pretty much sums it up. I provided a perfectly compelling if broad sweep case against the EU, you simply casually brushed it away with a catch-all whataboutism.

If you'll forgive me, it also calls into question your rather woolly platitudes about 'contributing to a wider community and a concern for the plight of those who will be hit hard'.

Where is your concern for the plight of the 50% of Greek kids with no chances, or the 40% of southern Italian and Spanish kids in the same boat, or for the Italian and Greek pensioners who have been buggered, entirely by core EU policy?

You say that you have heard no compelling argument in favour of Brexit. Well give me a compelling argument in favour of the EU. I have often asked through this debate, but have never received.

 

[eternumviti]

..You surely have heard the expression in economics “a rising tide lifts all boats”.

I guess it means roughly the same thing as 'trickle-down wealth'.

 

[zarniwoop]

Suppose Blonde Ambition approached the House in late September asking for support for a GE, which would mean that Parliament was suspended through to November so we automatically leave with no deal, does the panel think he would get enough support for this action?

 

[TheDecameron]

PFM has become the guy standing with the end of the world is nigh placard around his neck.

A majority Tory government under Boris, oh come on now, at least make your predictions within the realms of reality.

Even the vote was closer than many expected, considering Boris's fantastical claims.

Millions are taken in by his charade, they quite enjoy it. It’s just like Brexit- people voting to make themselves literally poorer. Some are ideologists and some are plain thick.

 

[TheDecameron]

Sue P-T

We were discussing around the point of you having heard absolutely no compelling argument to pursuade you of any positive attribute of Brexit. I said that this was probably because we were arguing about different things, my case against the EU revolving around ethics and morality, whilst yours for UK membership was predicated upon economics.







I think that pretty much sums it up. I provided a perfectly compelling if broad sweep case against the EU, you simply casually brushed it away with a catch-all whataboutism.

If you'll forgive me, it also calls into question your rather woolly platitudes about 'contributing to a wider community and a concern for the plight of those who will be hit hard'.

Where is your concern for the plight of the 50% of Greek kids with no chances, or the 40% of southern Italian and Spanish kids in the same boat, or for the Italian and Greek pensioners who have been buggered, entirely by core EU policy?

You say that you have heard no compelling argument in favour of Brexit. Well give me a compelling argument in favour of the EU. I have often asked through this debate, but have never received.

EV, I’d let the audience decide how compelling your performance was, rather than write your own reviews. Oh look, one discerning audience member agreed with you.

 

[eternumviti]

...Oh look, one discerning audience member agreed with you.

Was it me?

 

[Still]

whataboutism

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