Next Labour Leader: Keir Starmer

[gavreid]

You won't find me saying the poverty gap isn't a huge problem. But the widening of the poverty gap in the UK mainly happened in the 1980s, when Labour wasn't in power.

I didn't comment on it because I was talking about poverty.

I think you need to remove the rose tinted spectacles. Labour did little to reverse the Tory devastation of the 80s, which was my point, I think this is why people became so disillusioned in them and so quickly. The reason being that they accepted the Tory fiscal agenda - remember Brown's girlfriend 'prudence'.

 

[Seanm]

The reaction to Starmer from the non-Left seems odd to me. It's like they didn't actually listen to what he said and they are just doing a sort of dresses well + good education => Blair re-incarnated calculation.

PS I opposed austerity so much that I even bored myself on the subject. It was just a shame nobody of influence reads PFM

PPS I forgot I had joined the Labour party and didn't vote. I think this makes me not just a Centrist Enterist but a failed one. FWIW my main view was relief that Burgon didn't win as, despite being well meaning, he seems stupid enough to be in Johnson's cabinet.

The right and centre is pretty much a content-free zone: ISTM they operate on different levels than ideas and policy. One of those levels is the one you mention - image and prejudice, basically. But they also think in terms of personnel - who's he employing, who else is backing him - and Starmer played that very well, drawing people from Progress, Labour First as well as left factions. And finally the all-important machinery. Starmer's been making more or less coded declarations that he's going to leave the councils alone (big mistake in my opinion) and make changes to the structure of the NEC that will favour the right. So the right aren't completely vacuous, they're just more interested in positional stuff than policy. The exception is war. They are absolutely rock hard for war and that counted against Corbyn almost as much as the loss of influence.

In any case, for those interested in democratic reform of the party, community engagement, breaking up patronage networks in councils, that kind of thing, it's all quite dismaying. But who knows, Starmer may surprise us and disappoint the right rather than purge the left. Either way it's going to be as much of an education for the young left as the Corbyn moment itself.

 

[mattgbell]

I think you need to remove the rose tinted spectacles. Labour did little to reverse the Tory devastation of the 80s, which was my point, I think this is why people became so disillusioned in them. The reason being that they accepted the Tory fiscal agenda - remember Brown's girlfriend 'prudence'.

I've already shown that the Blair/Brown govts actually did quite a lot and I've backed it up with facts.

I've also said repeatedly that it wasn't enough. We agree on that.

I should imagine everyone else has had enough of this by now.

 

[Seanm]

https://twitter.com/daverich1/status/1245289597044699136

It's an accumulation of half-truths, bad faith spin, minor failures and one or two quite significant failures. It does not add up to antisemitism in my opinion, or indeed in relation to any reasonable definition - if it did he'd be out of the party. At the very least all of it needs to be seen in the context of his history of support for Jewish causes. Here's Geoffrey Alderman - hardly a Corbynite:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-jeremy-corbyn-really-anti-semitic-

 

[gavreid]

I should imagine everyone else has had enough of this by now.

Probably, there's many here wearing the same specs

 

[Seanm]

In the last five years, during which the left wing of the Labour Party has been dominant, there’s been a refusal to recognise what actually happened in domestic policy under the Blair/Brown governments.

Between 1997 and 2010 NHS spending rose from c. £70bn to c. £130bn. The result was shorter average waiting times for operations and in A&E, better facilities, more nurses and doctors etc. Above all NHS spending helps people on middle and lower incomes, i.e. those who don’t have private health insurance.

The years 1997-2010 saw a significant reduction in child poverty, from over 30% to under 20%. Arguably reducing child poverty is the single most progressive thing a government can do.

Support for pensioners increased considerably. Between 1997 and 2010 tax credits for pensioners rose by £11bn. As a result poverty among pensioners dropped from 25% to 17%.

And one foreign policy initiative: At the G8 in Gleneagles 2005, following an agenda set by the UK govt, it was agreed to write of £40bn of debt for the world’s 18 poorest countries.

I'd argue that this wasn't enough. But the idea that Blair and Brown only acted in the interests of the rich and big business is a myth.

It isn't really true that the left failed to acknowledge all this: it's more that the right wanted a lot more than acknowledgement, they wanted sanctification, and a re-run, in very different conditions.The real left criticism of the Blairites is not that they were corporate stooges, or even that the concessions they won were meaningless, it's that they were do easily undone. Just a few years into austerity it was already really hard to point to the positive legacy of the Blair-Brown years, even leaving aside the negative - which, I'd argue, is actually pretty sizeable, and includes the mainstreaming of anti-immigrant rhetoric and a widespread sense of disenfranchisement amongst the young and the working class.

 

[Dave H.]

The essence of Corbyn-era policies + Starmer's organisational ability & sharper comms is something I could get behind.

By way of justification, here's a snippet from today's Financial Times editorial:

Yes, that's the Financial Times. Attitudes are changing fast.

My fear is that Starmer might be too cautious to make the bold decisions that are needed, but I hope Im wrong.

It's encouraging to see that in the FT, certainly. But personally I'm as worried as I am optimistic.

My worry is that once CV is off the table, the intensity of the reassertion of the 'obvious truths' which held before the disease came along (by which I sarcastically mean anything on the spectrum of neoliberlalism, right authoritarianism, populist nationalism, household budget economic analogies, austerity/state shrinking or whatever - basically rightism being dressed as moderation, in whatever form is dominant within the right come the time) will dwarf any political effort seen since the 50's.

I hope I'm wrong, but basically I expect a left that thinks its time to shout has come will end up looking like the little old lady in the Come To Daddy video.

 

[Tony L]

It's encouraging to see that in the FT, certainly. But personally I'm as worried as I am optimistic.

No surprise. It is a real shame the FT is behind a paywall (though not its excellent Covid 19 analysis). If I ever felt the need to buy a paper it would almost certainly be the FT these days. The only competition is from the Guardian, obviously. I’d not wipe my cat’s arse with the rest.

 

[Woodface]

The Guardian is truly terrible these days, particularly when it comes to VFM. The ‘I’ is 10 x better at a third of the price. I used to love The Guardian but the move to Berliner was a costly vanity exercise & it is now a shoddy tabloid.

 

[Paul Mc]

It's an accumulation of half-truths, bad faith spin, minor failures and one or two quite significant failures. It does not add up to antisemitism in my opinion, or indeed in relation to any reasonable definition - if it did he'd be out of the party. At the very least all of it needs to be seen in the context of his history of support for Jewish causes. Here's Geoffrey Alderman - hardly a Corbynite:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-jeremy-corbyn-really-anti-semitic-

He fails the international definition the LP is signed up to, that's for sure. Left-wing anti-semitism is a different form of prejudice than the far right form, but I can't understand how you can't take the view that Corbyn's views are anti-Jewish. Most Jews believes that is the case.

 

[Paul Mc]

I think you need to remove the rose tinted spectacles. Labour did little to reverse the Tory devastation of the 80s, which was my point, I think this is why people became so disillusioned in them and so quickly. The reason being that they accepted the Tory fiscal agenda - remember Brown's girlfriend 'prudence'.

This in nonsense which objectively have been refuted and as a public servant during this period is completely at odds with the experiences of me and my colleagues. Was I a fan of Blair? No, which is why I voted for Miliband Jnr, which was a huge mistake.

 

[Paul Mc]

The essence of Corbyn-era policies + Starmer's organisational ability & sharper comms is something I could get behind.

By way of justification, here's a snippet from today's Financial Times editorial:

Yes, that's the Financial Times. Attitudes are changing fast.

My fear is that Starmer might be too cautious to make the bold decisions that are needed, but I hope Im wrong.

Still waiting for website.

 

[Paul Mc]

It's an accumulation of half-truths, bad faith spin, minor failures and one or two quite significant failures. It does not add up to antisemitism in my opinion, or indeed in relation to any reasonable definition - if it did he'd be out of the party. At the very least all of it needs to be seen in the context of his history of support for Jewish causes. Here's Geoffrey Alderman - hardly a Corbynite:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-jeremy-corbyn-really-anti-semitic-

More here:https://fathomjournal.org/the-corbyn-left-the-politics-of-position-and-the-politics-of-reason/

 

[gavreid]

This in nonsense which objectively have been refuted and as a public servant during this period is completely at odds with the experiences of me and my colleagues. Was I a fan of Blair? No, which is why I voted for Miliband Jnr, which was a huge mistake.

It's important to get your head around because it's led to the resurgence of the Right

 

[Tony L]

I’m actually curious as to the whole trajectory of both UK and global politics now given Covid 19 effectively shutting down capitalism and forcing even right-wing dullards like Trump and Johnson to print money like there is no tomorrow. What Johnson is doing right now makes Corbyn’s manifesto look like he wanted to stick 50p in a homeless person’s bowl, it is a truly unprecedented amount of state spending and borrowing. As such the whole political language has changed and really the only areas to go full tilt against the Tories is, as ever, is their blatant corruption (e.g. farming ventilator manufacturing to Brexit/Tory party donors like Dyson and JCB rather than getting on board with a far more efficient existing EU proposal).

As Mick pointed out the Tories only have the red-wall xenophobic vote on loan. To keep it they will have to buy it with jobs and vast urban/social renewal programs and state infrastructure. It will not come cheap as these areas have been neglected for decades. Of folk haven’t walked into a good job by the next election they’ll likely go back to Labour.

Then there is the Covid 19 body count. If that turns out to be hugely worse than other countries of similar wealth then the Tories own it, and I suspect they know it. They have presided over our healthcare funding for a decade now so there is absolutely nowhere to hide. It will obviously be an ugly statistic to use politically, but it is unavoidable. It will be whatever it will be and everyone in the country will know it.

 

[thebigfredc]

I always prefer a Labour government, but I want one that's going to deliver not just run the country in the interests of big business.

Thank you for replying. Let’s get them into Downing Street for starters and then they can start changing the country for the better.

From the debates I preference Nandy but Starmer has some qualities that will play well it has the electorate. Lets hope it’s the start of the journey back to power for Labour.

 

[gavreid]

Thank you for replying. Let’s get them into Downing Street for starters and then they can start changing the country for the better.

From the debates I preference Nandy but Starmer has some qualities that will play well it has the electorate. Lets hope it’s the start of the journey back to power for Labour.

The youngsters will need to define the future now post CV, not those harking back to the 'glory days' of a poxy Blair government. Hopefully the new generation will have a bit more imagination.

 

[Del monaco]

The youngsters will need to define the future now post CV, not those harking back to the 'glory days' of a poxy Blair government. Hopefully the new generation will have a bit more imagination.

I’m not hopeful really having seen how the young trailed after Corbin in cult like fashion.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Resent events with coronavirus have shown Corbyn was right all along.... We should have spent vastly more on the NHS BEFORE a crisis! Post crisis politics and public opinion may have been ready to accept his policies!

 

[droodzilla]

I’m not hopeful really having seen how the young trailed after Corbin in cult like fashion.

Two words:
David
Milliband

Actually on reflection, apologies for minor snark. But if todays result doesn't dislodge the idea that Labour has been taken over by the hard left or naive cultists, I don't know what will.