New Boiler/cylinder etc. quote. Such complexity! Do I really need these gizmos?

[Suffolk Tony]

Thanks Tony. I think the cold water feed to my shower is from the tank. If so, how would I adjust the temp. if only hot water from a combi? Maybe I'm wrong and it's directly from the main but that's not what I've gleaned from following the pipes in the loft. However, I guess the mains water could easily be diverted. I'm having a new shower anyway.

You'd adjust the temperature with a mixer shower tap with, say, your current mains feed to the loft tank going directly to this & the bathroom tap, then the direct hot-water feed from the combi boiler.

 

[cctaylor]

Replacing rads is no big deal, you unscrew the old ones and attach the new.

Only issue is if the old radiators are imperial sizes. You may need to adapt the pipework to fit them. When we moved in Heather wanted the old radiators changed as the modern enameled finish would look better than the old ones which were supplied in primer and painted over. I replaced about 10 radiators. Most had to come off anyway for redecorating so no real hardship. However as the house was built in 1984, the new radiators didn't match the pipe centres and required adaptors to make up the difference on most of them.

 

[Paul L]

I face a boiler replacement at some point too Mike and have two mates with strongly opposing views for years now. Plumber mate who lives 100 miles away but would come and do it at the time insists combis have improved and a WB would be both efficient, sufficient for 3-bedroomed house and of course free up space. My experience of combis in nineties and noughties flats was woeful.

Other mate says he would not put everything into a single point of failure and although there are separate parts to go wrong conventional system boiler remains better against the risk of being left without both heating and hot water when combi inevitably goes wrong, combi will have shorter lifespan etc. Experience has been better but aware of the compromises and inefficiencies. He also says don’t leave it too long before we’re forced into heat pumps at multiples of the cost of conventional options.

The only certainty would seem to be it won’t be cheap at the time. As to your point on sundries I know my plumber mate was stung badly in his early days and absolutely makes sure anything needed for gas-safe regs is included and says that since that is often not black and white he covers himself or it comes back and bites with remedial work that can be way beyond the original scope he would have been taking on.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

My friend & next-door neighbour, rather handily, happens to be a central heating engineer. He's all in favour of combi boilers, and I did consult with him over whether to replace our ancient old Grant combi with a newer model. His view was, as long as parts could be easily obtained then, even though the latest models are somewhat more efficient, we might just as well plod on with it, seeing as how it's never let us down. We've a gas-powered Baxi combi in our holiday home, now fourteen years old, which has never gone wrong either.

With boilers as with cars, too many people don't want to pay to get the servicing done properly when it's due & then bleat on about how unreliable the boiler's been when it goes wrong.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

BTW In case anyone else might find one useful:

The 'light'/'power bank' I got from CPC/Farnell is a D8000L "Power Bank" with a fairly bright light. Has a CPC/Farnell part number of BT06564. 8000mAh capacity,, 200lm light and has two USB output ports to recharge or power other items. I got it mainly as a possibly useful light of we get power cuts. But the USB power outlets may also prove useful. Claimed to light up for 17h if fully charged. But they may be cheating on that claim as it also has a 100lm setting and two 'flashing' settings for outdoor 'emergency' situations. Main drawback is that the book-of-words doesn't explain clearly the indications of the leds that show how charged it is! And as usual the leaflet has tiny text , thus hard to read!

 

[gintonic]

BTW In case anyone else might find one useful:

The 'light'/'power bank' I got from CPC/Farnell is a D8000L "Power Bank" with a fairly bright light. Has a CPC/Farnell part number of BT06564. 8000mAh capacity,, 200lm light and has two USB output ports to recharge or power other items. I got it mainly as a possibly useful light of we get power cuts. But the USB power outlets may also prove useful. Claimed to light up for 17h if fully charged. But they may be cheating on that claim as it also has a 100lm setting and two 'flashing' settings for outdoor 'emergency' situations. Main drawback is that the book-of-words doesn't explain clearly the indications of the leds that show how charged it is! And as usual the leaflet has tiny text , thus hard to read!

nearly went off and bought one....then realised we had one, hanging up in the kitchen, bought for such eventualities. Never used, better make sure it is charged

 

[stevec67]

BTW In case anyone else might find one useful:

The 'light'/'power bank' I got from CPC/Farnell is a D8000L "Power Bank" with a fairly bright light. Has a CPC/Farnell part number of BT06564. 8000mAh capacity,, 200lm light and has two USB output ports to recharge or power other items. I got it mainly as a possibly useful light of we get power cuts. But the USB power outlets may also prove useful. Claimed to light up for 17h if fully charged. But they may be cheating on that claim as it also has a 100lm setting and two 'flashing' settings for outdoor 'emergency' situations. Main drawback is that the book-of-words doesn't explain clearly the indications of the leds that show how charged it is! And as usual the leaflet has tiny text , thus hard to read!

I have one for camping that's solar powered. A day of light gets an evening of 2 big lights and phone charging all day.

 

[Mike Reed]

You'd adjust the temperature with a mixer shower tap with, say, your current mains feed to the loft tank going directly to this & the bathroom tap, then the direct hot-water feed from the combi boiler.

Thanks Tony, but maybe we've v. different showers or my lack of knowledge is creating a barrier to my understanding. The shower already incorporates a mixer (and thermostat of course) and the bathroom taps are on a separate cold main. IF choosing a combi eradicate some of the complex (i.e. like to go wrong?) and expensive stuff quoted for my indirect system, fine. Apart from the cylinder, though, I can't see that there'd be much difference but what do I know. I think the lack of detailed info. and my knowledge of modern htg systems, despite or because of my plumber's quasi itemised list, is causing me problems.

 

[Ellenor]

What’s you hot water requirement? How many bathrooms, en-suites etc? If you’re just showering and don’t even have a bath why heat a whole cylinder of hot water? Also what’s your mains pressure like? Is it going to provide enough flow/ pressure to supply the whole house if you’re on the mains for everything. There’s all sorts of things to take into account and you should probably be trusting your installer to be giving you the best advice rather than a hifi forum full of people that’s never stepped foot in your property. And get more than one quote too as different engineers have different ideas

 

[dweezil]

BTW In case anyone else might find one useful:

The 'light'/'power bank' I got from CPC/Farnell is a D8000L "Power Bank" with a fairly bright light. Has a CPC/Farnell part number of BT06564. 8000mAh capacity,, 200lm light and has two USB output ports to recharge or power other items. I got it mainly as a possibly useful light of we get power cuts. But the USB power outlets may also prove useful. Claimed to light up for 17h if fully charged. But they may be cheating on that claim as it also has a 100lm setting and two 'flashing' settings for outdoor 'emergency' situations. Main drawback is that the book-of-words doesn't explain clearly the indications of the leds that show how charged it is! And as usual the leaflet has tiny text , thus hard to read!

We got a couple from Lepro who do a range of LED lights, surprisingly useful; esp for repairing lights in ducts where i used to use a torch in my mouth.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I have one for camping that's solar powered. A day of light gets an evening of 2 big lights and phone charging all day.

We tend to be lucky with sunlight, perhaps because we're on the coast. It makes a noticable difference at present to how much we need the heating on. But we can't rely on that in the middle of winter if the electric may be off for 3hours fairly often! The item I bought fully recharges in about 5 hours. So should cope with 3 hours per day of no mains. But I also have some battery worklights and rechargable batteries and chargers. Just about to fiddle together a cable as well from my newest laptop's audio output and a decent portable radio. (Ancient Tandberg TP41) That would serve OK for watching videos if no TV set and want a change from reading, etc. I also have a DVB 'dongle' that lets VLC act as a TV/recorder. But I suspect the UHF distribution amp in the loft may not pass signals when it isn't powered. So no live TV I guess. Never mind, the pictures are better on radio anyway. 8-]

 

[stevec67]

We tend to be lucky with sunlight, perhaps because we're on the coast. It makes a noticable difference at present to how much we need the heating on. But we can't rely on that in the middle of winter if the electric may be off for 3hours fairly often! The item I bought fully recharges in about 5 hours. So should cope with 3 hours per day of no mains. But I also have some battery worklights and rechargable batteries and chargers. Just about to fiddle together a cable as well from my newest laptop's audio output and a decent portable radio. (Ancient Tandberg TP41) That would serve OK for watching videos if no TV set and want a change from reading, etc. I also have a DVB 'dongle' that lets VLC act as a TV/recorder. But I suspect the UHF distribution amp in the loft may not pass signals when it isn't powered. So no live TV I guess. Never mind, the pictures are better on radio anyway. 8-]

Dead right, radio all the way! No internet will be the biggest headache, but I'll cope. Coffee on the camping stove, battery radio, solar light, books.

 

[Mike Reed]

What’s you hot water requirement? How many bathrooms, en-suites etc? If you’re just showering and don’t even have a bath why heat a whole cylinder of hot water? Also what’s your mains pressure like? Is it going to provide enough flow/ pressure to supply the whole house if you’re on the mains for everything.

Thanks Ellenor. 1 bathroom, 1 p/shower over bath, 3 bed detached with good mains pressure. The cylinder is used for the shower and all hot taps. We're so used to our indirect system, that's what we had quotes for (4 olumbers= 3 quotes, 2 of them missing bits or confusing. we know out potential installer, who's done stuff before. 24 kWh Vaillant (or Ideal?) quoted for, as current old Potterton is underpowered (15 rad's of varying sizes).

Knocked out by the complexity of bits and costs and wonder if we're getting the right system. The cylinder is only about £250 so really isn't a concern, but would we be better off with a combi. The boiler is beside the sink and my wife worries about a combi coming on and off whilst she's washing up.

I'm happy to spend whatever but not for the wrong or totally unnecessary installation.

 

[hifinutt]

[


Yes, I know, Phil. Maybe my text was ambiguous as I was referring to a hot flush instead of a power flush. The Magnaclean may need cleaning a few times for any crud not removed by the hot flush (or so I was told).[/QUOTE]

yes and should be unscrewed and cleaned at every service . Some BG engineers dont do this unless you ask

and your wife should not be worried about boiler coming on and off , they are pretty quiet these days

 

[Sonority]

Mike, I'll leave it for others to elaborate if needed, but honestly, you do not need to keep stored hot water and power shower with a combi-boiler, thats their raison'detre' to be honest.
We have a three bed as yours, a combi-boiler feeds all hot water taps, and the shower. Cold at mains pressure goes to the other side of the shower via its mixing aray.
Very simple and straightforward fitting these days.
Each to their own, but personally, I would do a little bit more looking and check others ref keeping a hot water cylinder with power shower for a combi-boiler. It will not be either efficient or to your advantage long term, of that I am certain.
Not trying to throw spanners in works here btw!

 

[PhilofCas]

Our combi boiler and thermostatic mixer shower works a treat, plenty of flow and adjustability.

 

[stevec67]

Yes, I know, Phil. Maybe my text was ambiguous as I was referring to a hot flush instead of a power flush.

Most of the women of my acquaintance can give you a hot flush free of charge. You might have to wait about for a few hours though, their timekeeping and ability to hold to an appointment is hopeless.

 

[Ellenor]

Thanks Ellenor. 1 bathroom, 1 p/shower over bath, 3 bed detached with good mains pressure. The cylinder is used for the shower and all hot taps. We're so used to our indirect system, that's what we had quotes for (4 olumbers= 3 quotes, 2 of them missing bits or confusing. we know out potential installer, who's done stuff before. 24 kWh Vaillant (or Ideal?) quoted for, as current old Potterton is underpowered (15 rad's of varying sizes).

Knocked out by the complexity of bits and costs and wonder if we're getting the right system. The cylinder is only about £250 so really isn't a concern, but would we be better off with a combi. The boiler is beside the sink and my wife worries about a combi coming on and off whilst she's washing up.

I'm happy to spend whatever but not for the wrong or totally unnecessary installation.

My quotes are fairly simple. The only price I give is the total inc vat. I make the details of the job clear when I visit the property to survey it, I do all I can to make sure the customer understands what I’m quoting for when I’m looking at the job. I get a lot of work based on that. It seems the guys you’ve had to quote have not explained things when they’re looking at the job which is your issue here.

 

[Mike Reed]

It seems the guys you’ve had to quote have not explained things when they’re looking at the job which is your issue here.

T.b.h., Ellenor, it's probably me. The chap came round in January to bail us out when the boiler packed up (and still don't know why as it's been okay since) and looked around to see what's what. He came round again recently for a good check on things. However, I was simply thinking of replacing what I have. I never considered a combi as I was simply used to what I'd had for 45 years in various houses. He did explain and insisted that my 18 yr. old leaky cylinder had to go, whereas the other plumbers didn't.

It's really this thread which has seriously made me wonder. I was in the loft today and it dawned on me about the space taken up by the tanks and pipes/overflows etc. and not least that I need to get up there to clean out the expansion tank every now and again and that's getting much harder. I can install a warming element in the airing cupboard if I want (as was done in a flat I sold last year). Would there be enough hot water for both the shower and washing up simultaneously?

Think I'll need to express my doubts to the plumber and see what he comes up with. Yes it's unusual to itemise the constituents of a quote, which at first pleasantly surprised me but then confused me by so many bits being needed. He has recently set up on his own after 12+ years as a Gas Safe plumber so has a VAT advantage (or at least I do !).

 

[palacefan]

Hi Mike
When we moved into our property we had a Baxi system with a cylinder and expansion tank etc and changed to a combi boiler with great success. Your choice of boiler is a good one, my daughter runs one( combi) in her home.

Is your plumber Corgi registered? Years back I installed a Potterton boiler so understand your dilemma!

If you need an alternative quote I can provide details of a registered corgi installer from your side of the city who was used to verify all boilers upon completion when new external gas pipes where installed in this area.