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New Boiler/cylinder etc. quote. Such complexity! Do I really need these gizmos?

Mike Reed

pfm Member
Had an itemised quote for my coming installation; all priced up, so helpful, but at the same time, confusing as I don't really know what some of these gadgets are and whether they're necessary for a simple soul like me.

It's an 'upgrade system to S plan', whatever that is. Prices for boiler, s/steel cylinder, rad, pump and installation etc.. are understood, but £320 for a Honeywell time/temp. controls+ wiring acc's??? 2 x zone valves £184; bypass £55, pipe fittings & fixtures £523, Vaillant horizontal terminal and flue extension £188.

I currently have an old Potterton, gravity fed h/water and pumped htg, old cylinder and bathroom rad.

Does coming into the 21st century in htg really require all these expensive bits? Just reading the list makes me wonder if I can even operate it !!! My plumber isn't the best at communication so difficult to discuss with him, though we do want him to do the work as he's familiar to us.

Well over 4 grand (no VAT) for simply replacing stuff? The £523 for pipework is a mystery I can at least ask about, I suppose. Maybe my expectations are all wrong. Any advice?
 
You will need things like time controls and thermostats these days. As I know from a recent install, the regulations say they must be fitted. A motorised Honeywell valve is about £100-ish so that figure sounds right. For the pipework, it depends how much you need. But be aware that copper pipe is now very expensive. About £7 a metre. If you need a couple of runs even in average house, you will be using many metres. Plus a single TRV for one radiator might be about £20 so stuff like this will soon add up if you are having those fitted to several radiators (you might be, as it sounds like it was an old system).
 
Why not put in a combi boiler then the tank, separate pump etc etc can go, generally we are paying around 2 grand for replacing an old boiler with a combi, not sure why you need loads of new pipes ( unless moving boiler) and rads unless they are shot?
 
Why not put in a combi boiler then the tank, separate pump etc etc can go, generally we are paying around 2 grand for replacing an old boiler with a combi, not sure why you need loads of new pipes ( unless moving boiler) and rads unless they are shot?

agree a combi boiler may suffice, you need to discuss with the plumber pros and cons. He does not sound like a rip-off merchant imo. Two tone, and others will have a better knowledge than me
 
Why not put in a combi boiler then the tank, separate pump etc etc can go, generally we are paying around 2 grand for replacing an old boiler with a combi, not sure why you need loads of new pipes ( unless moving boiler) and rads unless they are shot?
This makes sense. I paid £2.5k for a replacement combi 2 years ago. It's been perfect ever since. 10 year guarantee. Wireless thermostat control needs new batteries every 2 years. Seems easy enough.
 
as it sounds like it was an old system).

Thanks for that. The boiler is old (ancient !) but the cylinder is 18 y.o. (but leaks and has no 'stat). The system hhad new pipework and rad's 13 y. ago. I can't see that much pipework is needed because nothing is changing. Yes, the TRVs are £25 each, to replace ones which have died. i control rad's by the other end which works fine but is a bit crude.

Why not put in a combi boiler then the tank, separate pump etc etc can go, generally we are paying around 2 grand for replacing an old boiler with a combi, not sure why you need loads of new pipes ( unless moving boiler) and rads unless they are shot?

We're so used to an airing cupboard and have a power shower (though at low speeds). Had a replacement combi put into a flat last year and that was £2K. I know that converting to combi would prob. be a lot cheaper but never having lived with one, think this is a change too far. 3 bed detached house. Wife says she'd be driven mad by the boiler coming on every time she turned a tap! Bathroom, airing cupboard is right above the kitchen boiler, so quite efficient in that respect.
 
The place I am renting has a tank and airing cupboard. It takes a long time of running the tap to get hot water to the kitchen, and it just seems wrong to generate moisture from clothes drying in a confined space. Added to that the energy losses of keeping a tank warm all the time. An on demand system and a condensing dryer might be cheaper both to install and run.
 
The place I am renting has a tank and airing cupboard. It takes a long time of running the tap to get hot water to the kitchen, and it just seems wrong to generate moisture from clothes drying in a confined space. Added to that the energy losses of keeping a tank warm all the time. An on demand system and a condensing dryer might be cheaper both to install and run.

How long any tap takes to run hot, depends on the pipe run from tank or boiler - neither a tank nor combi can be near every hot tap unless all hot taps are spectacularly close together. If I had a combi in the kitchen, the pipe run to my bathroom would be way over 20 feet. Not everyone has or has space for a combi where the water is needed - I even seen them fitted in an under-stairs cubby-hole as it was the only place suitable.
A tank should not be constantly heated - a couple of hours once per day is usually more than enough unless the hot water usage is vast , as with a large family.
An airing cupboard is not used to dry anything, or certainly shouldn't be. Most people use it as storage as much as anything, especially for bulky things like bedding.
 
It takes a long time of running the tap to get hot water to the kitchen, and it just seems wrong to generate moisture from clothes drying in a confined space. Added to that the energy losses of keeping a tank warm all the time. An on demand system and a condensing dryer might be cheaper both to install and run.

Good points but hot water is almost instant here as all taps are within a few eet of the cylinder/boiler. Don't agree on 'generating moisture'; in the winter esp., it finishes the drying process; moisture evaporates to the loft and heat loss from the cylinder simply keeps frost away from the tanks immediately above. No room for any other piece of white goods either.

A tank should not be constantly heated - a couple of hours once per day is usually more than enough

It isn't here, Vinny; as you say, a couple of hours per day; keeps hot enough throughout.

An airing cupboard is not used to dry anything, or certainly shouldn't be.

It certainly is here, and was its original purpose. Read my response above; all taps, cylinder and boiler are within close proximity. It's what I liked about this place compared to the total opposite in our short-lived previous place where the boiler was at the end of a cold, north-facing extension.
 

An airing cupboard is not used to dry anything, or certainly shouldn't be.

It certainly is here, and was its original purpose..

You are the first person that I have heard of or known using an airing cupboard for drying anything - airing maybe. Here, anything that needs airing goes on those wire racks that hang on radiators. The airing cupboard keeps things aired here - it is rammed with bedding and towels - there is nothing like enough room in it to dry even a hankerchief. (This being a bungalow, there is no under-stairs cupboard, so the bottom of airing cupboard is also the "storage" for all the smaller items that would normally disappear under the stairs in a house.)
 
So sorry to piggyback on this thread, but it comes in at a very timely moment. My father, who lives alone and is most probably beginning to suffer dementia, has an old boiler/cylinder heating system that works - just - but has no thermostat and is likely not very efficient nor reliable. We would like to get him a combi setup.

My question is more about existing pipework, specifically the manifolds etc. that serve the rads throughout his house. The boiler fires up, some rads work but others don't get warm at all, and the incoming feed is cold. Somewhere in the system there's likely a lot of sludge. If we get a new combi, presumably before it is installed they can clear out the existing pipework somehow? Or would it need replacing? (That would be a huge job!). From memory, the house has 8 radiators on two floors, which we'd replace with modern & TRVs, combi with something like a Nest or Hive room thermostat.

Since it will be a lot easier to use a local firm, I want to be sure we won't get fleeced. When I saw the £2k-ish quotes for a combi supply & install, it got me wondering how much I should be looking to pay for the removal of the old boiler and cylinder, a full system flush of the old pipework, and the install of a decent combi (e.g. a Worcester), 8 new rads which would replace the old ones, like-for-like (since they're all at least 30 if not 40 years old and probably due for replacement), and a web-enabled wireless room thermostat? Do you think all of that could be done for about £4k? Or am I being optimistic? Dad lives in the Fife area.
 
I really wouldn't fret about converting to a combi boiler Mike, it really is your best option. You also lose the tank & pipework in the loft, so stops worries about freezing up there. Our old Grant oil-fired combi's been giving sterling service for the last 24 or so years, just regular maintenance.
 
Since it will be a lot easier to use a local firm, I want to be sure we won't get fleeced. When I saw the £2k-ish quotes for a combi supply & install, it got me wondering how much I should be looking to pay for the removal of the old boiler and cylinder, a full system flush of the old pipework, and the install of a decent combi (e.g. a Worcester), 8 new rads which would replace the old ones, like-for-like (since they're all at least 30 if not 40 years old and probably due for replacement), and a web-enabled wireless room thermostat? Do you think all of that could be done for about £4k? Or am I being optimistic? Dad lives in the Fife area.

FWIW I live in Fife and have found it a real challenge to find a heating/plumbing engineer who will do what we actually need - as distinct from them telling us what they will do. i.e. change everything inc needing new holes in the exterior wall and demolishing a lot of the fitted kitchen. They'd rather do this and refuse to simply replace the CH circuit pump on an old system. Indeed, they also seem incapable of working with yorkshire tube!

BTW on a topical note. Bear in mind that electricity power cuts this winter may mean no electrically powered/controlled items in a gas-fired heating system may then work - i.e. heating goes off. We still have an old gas fire in one of the main rooms. May be old fashioned and less efficient. But works. Handy to have.
 
and demolishing a lot of the fitted kitchen.

indeed every plumber we've spoken to has told me to call back when we are having a new kitchen fitted.

Our back boiler is old but works well for our needs. But we have no external wall for a flue. Putting a new one in the loft is way too disruptive. There is one place - would involve bricking up a non opening and never used window....but no one is interested.
 
You are the first person that I have heard of or known using an airing cupboard for drying anything - airing maybe.

Drying clothes in an airing cupboard? Not me. Airing cupboard is for airing; i.e. that last process, esp. needed during colder months. Our washing goes outside except on rarel days when washing is mistimed and it rains; then it's hung up in the bathroom.
So sorry to piggyback on this thread, but it comes in at a very timely moment.

Happy to be piggy-backed, JTC and your dad's system reflects my own, except inasmuch as I do have some newish rad's and the pipework may not be quite so 'sludged out' A combi may be fine for hom as he lives alone.

You also lose the tank & pipework in the loft, so stops worries about freezing up there.

My tanks in the loft don't eat anything, Tony, but do a useful job. Not sure I love cleaning out the expansion tank every couple of years, buy hey ho! The pipework in the loft is the feed to my shower, so will remain regardless, I guess.
 
So sorry to piggyback on this thread, but it comes in at a very timely moment. My father, who lives alone and is most probably beginning to suffer dementia, has an old boiler/cylinder heating system that works - just - but has no thermostat and is likely not very efficient nor reliable. We would like to get him a combi setup.

My question is more about existing pipework, specifically the manifolds etc. that serve the rads throughout his house. The boiler fires up, some rads work but others don't get warm at all, and the incoming feed is cold. Somewhere in the system there's likely a lot of sludge. If we get a new combi, presumably before it is installed they can clear out the existing pipework somehow? Or would it need replacing? (That would be a huge job!). From memory, the house has 8 radiators on two floors, which we'd replace with modern & TRVs, combi with something like a Nest or Hive room thermostat.

Since it will be a lot easier to use a local firm, I want to be sure we won't get fleeced. When I saw the £2k-ish quotes for a combi supply & install, it got me wondering how much I should be looking to pay for the removal of the old boiler and cylinder, a full system flush of the old pipework, and the install of a decent combi (e.g. a Worcester), 8 new rads which would replace the old ones, like-for-like (since they're all at least 30 if not 40 years old and probably due for replacement), and a web-enabled wireless room thermostat? Do you think all of that could be done for about £4k? Or am I being optimistic? Dad lives in the Fife area.

Yes, they can flush a system and I think they normally have to now to comply with boiler warranty terms. Plus most of the sludge is likely in the radiators so replacing the radiators should sort out the problem.

Do be aware that there is a potential risk that higher water pressure of a combi system could cause leaks in pipework of an old system. Tank-fed operates at low water pressure whereas combi is higher mains pressure. This could add to cost if plumbers want to replace old bits like manifolds.
 
My question is more about existing pipework, specifically the manifolds etc. that serve the rads throughout his house. The boiler fires up, some rads work but others don't get warm at all, and the incoming feed is cold. Somewhere in the system there's likely a lot of sludge. If we get a new combi, presumably before it is installed they can clear out the existing pipework somehow?
Yes, they call it powerflush and it uses chemicals followed by a pressurised hose to flush out all the sludge, corrosion, etc.

Or would it need replacing? (That would be a huge job!).
Let's hope not but it can happen. When my parents needed a new cylinder the pipework was blocked with scale and had to be replaced. Hard water area.

From memory, the house has 8 radiators on two floors, which we'd replace with modern & TRVs, combi with something like a Nest or Hive room thermostat.

Since it will be a lot easier to use a local firm, I want to be sure we won't get fleeced. When I saw the £2k-ish quotes for a combi supply & install, it got me wondering how much I should be looking to pay for the removal of the old boiler and cylinder, a full system flush of the old pipework, and the install of a decent combi (e.g. a Worcester), 8 new rads which would replace the old ones, like-for-like (since they're all at least 30 if not 40 years old and probably due for replacement), and a web-enabled wireless room thermostat? Do you think all of that could be done for about £4k? Or am I being optimistic? Dad lives in the Fife area.
Again, you'd hope so. Replacing rads is no big deal, you unscrew the old ones and attach the new. 8 new rads and TRVs ought to be a day's work for a pro if the existing pipework is sound, so that's not hugely costly. I'm not sure that you would need to replace all 8 rads. Mine are (I think) those that were put in when the house was new in 1989. I have had to replace a bathroom towel rail that started leaking, cost £50 and half a day of DIY. The others are all OK. In your case the existing ones all work so why replace them all? With the best will in the world they only need to work for the remainder of the time that your father lives in the house, and unfortunately that isn't going to be another 30 years in view of his condition. New radiators will add precisely nothing to the value of the house if and when you sell. Most buyers will rip out half the place anyway, regardless of how old it is, that's just the way of things.
 
Flushing is simple but time consuming, may be a good time to up your DIY skills, if the old rads have been looked after there might not be much point in changing them.

The house i was bought up in still has plenty of 55 year old rads that work.

I hired a flusher for the weekend last time i had to do the job.

Just seen the last post, sorry to overlap!
 
indeed every plumber we've spoken to has told me to call back when we are having a new kitchen fitted.

In essence, that's the approach we get presented with. All or nowt.

It was different a few decades ago. Then we had a choice of local plumbers, etc, who would do repairs and replacements quickly and easily. Their local reputation was the way they 'advertised' and had other work offerred to them.

Now it seems to be non-local 'firms' that want only to do big jobs for big profits. They don't care because they aren't your neighbours. Advertise in professional ways, and interact via the net and a mobile. Often use some of the 'trusted trader' sites which tend to be gamed.

That's been made worse here because the place I live has seen serious rises in the cost of housing. Which has meant that the children/apprentices of the older tradespeople can no longer afford to live here - unless they adopt the above approach, perhaps.. But in reality they're pretty much all gone.
 
In your case the existing ones all work so why replace them all? With the best will in the world they only need to work for the remainder of the time that your father lives in the house, and unfortunately that isn't going to be another 30 years in view of his condition. New radiators will add precisely nothing to the value of the house if and when you sell. Most buyers will rip out half the place anyway, regardless of how old it is, that's just the way of things.
I hear what you're saying. My sister wants to retire to the area at some point so may take the house on, but that's irrelevant. What is clear is that I don't know for sure if some of the rads work since there's no hot water getting to at least two of them (hence my theory about a blockage at the heating manifold) but that's not to say that the rads themselves are going to be in good shape. A bloody good flush is what's needed first IMHO.
 


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