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Naim and what cap?

Positive_,

you forgot CDPS, XPS, XPS-2 and XPS-2DR... Not to mention XP5XS
Anyway, what I think some mean with Naim sound (and I am inclined to agree sometimes) is probably something that has to do with the basic choices that have remained across the different ages of PSU design by Naim, e.g. the choice of:

- powerful toroidal transformer
- big reservoir capacitor(s)
- simple regulators based on strictly selected LM317s

which seems to build up to a type of sound, in which drive, bass presence and control, immediacy of presentation are preferred over hyper filtering of current and complex regulation.

I'm not a technician, but I studied the thing a little bit. What I think many blame Naim for is the fact that LM317 is a very old regulator and Naim had, so far, not chosen to upgrade their design; anyway, a type of sound is apparently common to all modern Naim PSUs, as it appears from the many reports by those who have compared Naims and Teddy Pardos, ending up with rather similar impressions of each.

Ironically enough, having always been a Naim user and, in a couple of circumstances, been treated like a zelant passive follower on these pages, whe the DR came out I posted on the Naim forum assuming more or less than now, having the main design been changed radically, it could be finally argued what residual difference could still there be between Naim's and 3rd parties' PSUs, for which I was almost - if not banned - certainly panned by many.

Cordially,
M.
 
Few months back I was reading a thread in the Naim forum which is about the CD555 transport. Some of the forumers claim that they have changed the transport a few times. Then the rest suggest its the company that produces such transports are at fault.

Question is: If one buy a house and the sound proofing is of substandard, then should I approach the developer or hunt down the manufacturer of the sound proofing material and sue the manufacturer for making inferior product?
 
Maxbertola said:
Positive_,

you forgot CDPS, XPS, XPS-2 and XPS-2DR... Not to mention XP5XS
Anyway, what I think some mean with Naim sound (and I am inclined to agree sometimes) is probably something that has to do with the basic choices that have remained across the different ages of PSU design by Naim, e.g. the choice of:

- powerful toroidal transformer
- big reservoir capacitor(s)
- simple regulators based on strictly selected LM317s
Click to expand...

Don't forget that even for a single product like Hicap has used different transformer before and they do sound different. So which one is the true Naim sound? :confused:
 
It's all complete nonsense.
Use your ears, buy what suits you best and enjoy the music.
I recently sold the vast majority of my Naim stuff and all my power supplies (one Naim, one non Naim) and I am absolutely delighted to have got rid after 30 years.
Over-rated and underwhelming would be my description of the Naim stuff when compared objectively with some other stuff.

Simon
 
naimsg,

I agree with you, and in fact I specified that I sometimes agree about a certain Naim sound.
The truth is that no >Naim sound< exists, but the sound that a certain piece of equipement, in a certain epoch and in conjunction with other pieces, is meant by Naim to produce.

On the Naim forum a debate is still running about how, or whether, >olive< gear is or isn't better than the present one; as for me, I have chosen to use the SNAPS because:

- it was relatively cheap
- it was a great satisfaction for me, after a few weeks of study, to do the recapping and dual railing by myself and
- when I tried it, in comparison with the bare amp and the use of a HiCap, I found in the small SNAPS enough good qualities to decide to keep it.

As for the legitimate question, that you may ask me now, whether I would have kept the SNAPS with the same sound had it been a TeddyCap or an Avondale - well, I don't know. Biases are not crimes, I think each of us tries to be as intellectually honest as he can, without turning his life into perennial distress..

M.
 
doctorf said:
It's all complete nonsense.
Use your ears, buy what suits you best and enjoy the music.
I recently sold the vast majority of my Naim stuff and all my power supplies (one Naim, one non Naim) and I am absolutely delighted to have got rid after 30 years.
Over-rated and underwhelming would be my description of the Naim stuff when compared objectively with some other stuff.

Simon
Click to expand...

Pity I didn't know it... Something might have been still good for me!
M.
 
doctorf said:
It's all complete nonsense.
Use your ears, buy what suits you best and enjoy the music.
I recently sold the vast majority of my Naim stuff and all my power supplies (one Naim, one non Naim) and I am absolutely delighted to have got rid after 30 years.
Over-rated and underwhelming would be my description of the Naim stuff when compared objectively with some other stuff.

Simon
Click to expand...

Are you a Naim basher? The Naim fanatics are coming with the clubs! :D

images
 
naimsg said:
Few months back I was reading a thread in the Naim forum which is about the CD555 transport. Some of the forumers claim that they have changed the transport a few times. Then the rest suggest its the company that produces such transports are at fault.

Question is: If one buy a house and the sound proofing is of substandard, then should I approach the developer or hunt down the manufacturer of the sound proofing material and sue the manufacturer for making inferior product?
Click to expand...

If your house had been sold to you by Naim, they would kindly agree to care for the problem and would change the sound proofing, for free if a warranty period was still on.
On the other hand, under the same condition, you could have - in absolute freedom of choice and knowing what you are paying - the substitution of a sound proof system which was built into your house 40 years ago and for which the maker (of the house, not of the sound proofing) has kept a store full of spare parts which they have bought and paid for in order to guarantee a service for all - or the most part of - the houses they have built.
 
Look,

I'm not defending Naim prices or their marketing politics. I know everything there is expensive. It's simply that insistent attacks onto a given brand - and only that brand - after a while annoy me.

On the other hand, he who buys such an expensive CD player might be ready to consider a comparable cost to have the mechanc replaced - and, as I wrote and as should be obvious, one thing is a replacement under warranty and another after 20 years.

The greatest part of the CD555's cost is, apparently, in its manifacture. Why don't you ask Naim about the cost of the replacement?

And, for that: I know of a CDP by Audio Note that apparently costs £192000: now, if I had to choose an absurdly overrated and not overwhelming brand of audio gear, that would be Audio Note. Yet, I don't seem to have ever seen AN mentioned here among overpriced brands.

Anyway, I always let myself be taken into these silly discussions. Nothing personal, but as far as I'm concerned it can end here. I don't think I have ever concealed my opinions, so they are not new to the forum.

Best,
M.
 
Maxbertola said:
Positive_,

you forgot CDPS, XPS, XPS-2 and XPS-2DR... Not to mention XP5XS
Anyway, what I think some mean with Naim sound (and I am inclined to agree sometimes) is probably something that has to do with the basic choices that have remained across the different ages of PSU design by Naim, e.g. the choice of:

- powerful toroidal transformer
- big reservoir capacitor(s)
- simple regulators based on strictly selected LM317s

which seems to build up to a type of sound, in which drive, bass presence and control, immediacy of presentation are preferred over hyper filtering of current and complex regulation.

I'm not a technician, but I studied the thing a little bit. What I think many blame Naim for is the fact that LM317 is a very old regulator and Naim had, so far, not chosen to upgrade their design; anyway, a type of sound is apparently common to all modern Naim PSUs, as it appears from the many reports by those who have compared Naims and Teddy Pardos, ending up with rather similar impressions of each.

Ironically enough, having always been a Naim user and, in a couple of circumstances, been treated like a zelant passive follower on these pages, whe the DR came out I posted on the Naim forum assuming more or less than now, having the main design been changed radically, it could be finally argued what residual difference could still there be between Naim's and 3rd parties' PSUs, for which I was almost - if not banned - certainly panned by many.

Cordially,
M.
Click to expand...

From everything I have seen and read, the PSUs just deliver clean power on demand. There is no specific "house sound" as such, which was what my previous post was hinting at.

Personally I don't frequent the Naim forum anymore - it is like visiting soviet era Russia. If I am going to debate something I would rather do so somewhere where people are not so blatantly gagged!
 
I still visit the Naim forum; there's a lot of smart and mature people there to discuss all sort of subjects with.
Minds are much more open to other gear there, than average attitude is, towards Naim, here. That is a maker's forum, besides, while this is independent.
The only restrictions have been imposed by another manifacturer to Naim; all kinds of opinions are expressed, often critical to the house brand.
It doesn't reminds me of Soviet Union; it is a place for people who want to be there; I have learned a lot about other gear, from people who don't use Naim but not out of contempt or disappointment, and don't feel compelled to stigmatize the gear.
That, of course, doesn't prevent me from coming here, where I can learn more things.
Those who don't like Naim are perfectly free not to buy it, but I don't understand the mechanism by which whole threads are devoted to its demolition. This reminds me of the philosopher Cioran, who dedicated hundreds of pages to the subject of the futility of undertaking anything.

Still, positive_, absolutely nothing personal.
M.
 
I agree with Max the Naim forum can be a lot of fun! I once got a long discussion going about the different switch on sounds of the various eras of amp. Bloody fantastic- search 'Switch on thump' on their forum.
 
doctorf said:
I recently sold the vast majority of my Naim stuff and all my power supplies (one Naim, one non Naim) and I am absolutely delighted to have got rid after 30 years.
Over-rated and underwhelming would be my description of the Naim stuff when compared objectively with some other stuff.

Simon
Click to expand...

If you asked me a bit silly to run 30 years with kit you don't like..!:confused:
 
Yawnie-yawn-yawn.

To the op: buy the most expensive Naim 'cap available to humanity.

To the tedious anti-Naimers: you're just tedious.
 
A friend of mine ended up selling his beloved Sony SCD-777ES as Sony didn't want to know anything about it, and refused to look at it to repair it. Now that is an over-priced piece of kit. The fact that, as I understand it, Naim will repair every single product aside from one or two CDPs, for which they no longer have, or can get parts, is a big reason to respect them as a company, and probably one reason why their products hold their values so well.

The ultimate litmus test to the overpricing of their products would be their PL report, and what their net-profit margin is.
NP/TO
2011 .75m/16m=4.7%
2010 .65m/14m=4.6%
2009 .3m/11m=2.7%
2008 -.02m/10m=-0.2%
So, I don't think one can really say that their products are "overpriced" if they only acheive at best a net profit margin of 4.7%.

Go to Apple if you want to talk about overpriced products...
 
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