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Naim and what cap?

MVV said:
Ah well sir obviously that amplifier you bought for £1400 has been designed to sound broken without a hi-cap. A flat cap just makes it sound a little less broken- think of it as a high cap that doesn't work really. Other power supplies (Teddy cap Sonic Bliss etc) spoil the 'Naim sound' so should be avoided etc etc
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MVV,
nothing personal but this, if seriously meant, is just silly. Nobody says a bare XS sounds broken, in fact the first reply carries the opinion that a bare XS is perfectly ok, which is also my humble opinion.

The power supply inside a Nait XS, as are almost all internal PSUs in Naim gear, are single-railed, which means that a single line of 24 volts powers it.
This does not mean that the internal PSU is lousy or >broken<. External PSUs are dual rail, meaning that two lines of 24 volts power the two sections of the preamp, and they are external and more isolated and sometimes sport bigger transformers, which explains why they usually bring benefits.

As for third part PSUs, now that Naim has completely re-designed their regulators, Naim PSUs themselves can be considered 3rd party PSUs, :p, so this boring issue will finally have and end...

M.
 
I don't mean to do Naim bashing here. I absolutely love Naim products and have been using them for many years.

Sometimes ardent Naim fanatics do kick off a big fuss whenever even a tiny little negative comments are made about Naim. Sometimes such negatives comments are true, so why not just accept and be aware of it.

For those long time users of Naim, many of us will prefer the hicap with HF transformer. I believe Naim stopped using them when HF ceased operation? I know friends who buy hicap and supercap with HF transformer and keep them as collectables.
 
Personally I recently got infected with the all familiar Naim-flu :) So I'm new to all within the Naim products. What I have noticed, that seems to *iss off all non Naimers a bit, and honestly myself included, is their smart approach to make the customer stick to their stuff. The whole deal with a PSU line is offcourse to make money. And, it's up to me to choose to pay the extra for a PSU. It's not like my XS-2 sounds bad in any way. It only can sound better. And it's a smart move from Naim. Just take the cable issue... WHY construct their amps to lock up the user to their NAC A5's? Offcourse to make money! It's just silly to exclude only 1 component in the output stage sound wise to compensate this with the right capacitive in the cables. These costs an extra couple of hundred quids. And I have had dealers said that I must use Naims cables or the amp may blow up and this is not covered by the warranty. I mean. Come on. Anyway. I like Naim products for what they are and choose all by myself if I want to. So, that's just the way it goes. And, I want to have an xCap to make it better, even if that benefits the Christmas bonus for the Naim employees ;)

Sorry for my lousy English.
 
That is kind of you Max. I think it was just silly even if it wasn't seriously meant.
 
I suspect there are few contributors fluent in Swedish! No-one's ever suggested this is an English only site so I'm sure everyone wil agree with me when I say please don't apologise. The more, the merrier. I don't think the XS is cable specific. Certainly not using Naim cable with mine. The point about the upgrade ladder is often made. I'm not sure I see the difference between this and any other manufacturer with a product range. Unless there is only one product of each type then there is a suggestion that something better is available from that maker. Naim simply offer even smaller steps. It remains perfectly possible to buy a Naim product and add nothing to it. That 'upgrades' are available doesn't mean you're obliged to even consider them. Indeed there are users on here going from more expensive set ups back to a simple Nait 2 for example. Downgrading or simplicity? Anyway, each to their own but I have found that an Olive hicap on the Nait is a superb upgrade. Love it. I'd have happily bought a Teddy cap and tried that but the hicap came along first.
 
Being (semi) serious for a moment, I cannot help remembering a remark of De Casseres. It was over the wine in Mouquin's. He said: "The profoundest instinct in man is to war against the truth; that is, against the Real. He shuns facts from his infancy. His life is a perpetual evasion. Miracle, chimera and to-morrow keep him alive. He lives on fiction and myth. It is the Lie that makes him free. Animals alone are given the privilege of lifting the veil of Isis; men dare not. The animal, awake, has no fictional escape from the Real because he has no imagination. Man, awake, is compelled to seek a perpetual escape into Hope, Belief, Fable, Art, God, Socialism, Immortality, Alcohol, Love and hi-fi upgrades.:)
 
Rather hi fi upgrades than religion. Please, don't start me on that folly.... makes my little purchases pale into something way beyond insignificance!
 
God is in there. Between Art and Socialism although It is really about the eye of Medusa.
 
MVV said:
Being (semi) serious for a moment, I cannot help remembering a remark of De Casseres. It was over the wine in Mouquin's. He said: "The profoundest instinct in man is to war against the truth; that is, against the Real. He shuns facts from his infancy. His life is a perpetual evasion. Miracle, chimera and to-morrow keep him alive. He lives on fiction and myth. It is the Lie that makes him free. Animals alone are given the privilege of lifting the veil of Isis; men dare not. The animal, awake, has no fictional escape from the Real because he has no imagination. Man, awake, is compelled to seek a perpetual escape into Hope, Belief, Fable, Art, God, Socialism, Immortality, Alcohol, Love and hi-fi upgrades.:)
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I don't get a single word out of that, but it seemed deep and philosophic ;)
 
Maxbertola said:
As for third part PSUs, now that Naim has completely re-designed their regulators, Naim PSUs themselves can be considered 3rd party PSUs, :p, so this boring issue will finally have and end...

M.
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Good point, though I don't share your optimism!
 
Discohund said:
Personally I recently got infected with the all familiar Naim-flu :) So I'm new to all within the Naim products. What I have noticed, that seems to *iss off all non Naimers a bit, and honestly myself included, is their smart approach to make the customer stick to their stuff. The whole deal with a PSU line is offcourse to make money. And, it's up to me to choose to pay the extra for a PSU. It's not like my XS-2 sounds bad in any way. It only can sound better. And it's a smart move from Naim. Just take the cable issue... WHY construct their amps to lock up the user to their NAC A5's? Offcourse to make money! It's just silly to exclude only 1 component in the output stage sound wise to compensate this with the right capacitive in the cables. These costs an extra couple of hundred quids. And I have had dealers said that I must use Naims cables or the amp may blow up and this is not covered by the warranty. I mean. Come on. Anyway. I like Naim products for what they are and choose all by myself if I want to. So, that's just the way it goes. And, I want to have an xCap to make it better, even if that benefits the Christmas bonus for the Naim employees ;)

Sorry for my lousy English.
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As a matter of fact Naim introduced separate PSU back in the old days to power up their preamplifiers as these allways (in that vintage) did have phonostage built-in.
Its a clear advance using separate PSU with sensible phonostages, Julian knew that back in the 70'ies

As for "it can only sound better" - I'm not sure, you will find some prefer their naked XS or SN, mind you the signal need to go through two lenght of snaic cable, not allways a good solution, so as told, listen for yourself before you decide whether its better.
Personally I prefer a 5i amp over any XS/SN cap'ed or not.

As for the spkr cable issue I dissagree
Their A5 cable is very cheap even by todays competition and its obviously a technically explanation found somewhere, indeed great amps need a special construction, fact is most Naim amplifiers perform best with cable load of 4,5 even 6-7 mtr cable, there are alternatives as you might have heard so your words scream a bit
 
In my experience, for the Nait-XS a Flatcap is probably about as good as it gets. But if you want to spend more $$$ then I would rank them:

1. Teddycap
2. Naim Hicap2 DR
3. Naim Hicap
4. Naim FlatcapXS
 
Which begs the million dollar question, would a source or pre/power upgrade make sense ?
 
The signal doesn't need to go through two lengths of snaic - I use the Avondale method where it bypasses the Hicap.
 
PerF said:
As a matter of fact Naim introduced separate PSU back in the old days to power up their preamplifiers as these allways (in that vintage) did have phonostage built-in.
Its a clear advance using separate PSU with sensible phonostages, Julian knew that back in the 70'ies

As for "it can only sound better" - I'm not sure, you will find some prefer their naked XS or SN, mind you the signal need to go through two lenght of snaic cable, not allways a good solution, so as told, listen for yourself before you decide whether its better.
Personally I prefer a 5i amp over any XS/SN cap'ed or not.

As for the spkr cable issue I dissagree
Their A5 cable is very cheap even by todays competition and its obviously a technically explanation found somewhere, indeed great amps need a special construction, fact is most Naim amplifiers perform best with cable load of 4,5 even 6-7 mtr cable, there are alternatives as you might have heard so your words scream a bit
Click to expand...

Yup. And that's your opinion. Tell me, have you ever heard/met someone who had their Naim amp blow up because of not using correct speaker cables (read: Nac A5)? You seem to know a whole lot about this.
 
To go back a little to the original post: although I like the idea of better power supplying and have experimented enough (and spent enough), I haven't found that an extra power supply makes always sense.
And I don't agree on the view of some that a better power supply could be put inside the box first - in some cases there is simply not space enough.
Anyway, when I had CD5/Nait5/Flatcap2x I did careful listening sessions in all possible combinations and in the end I chose the FC2x on the Nait's preamp only, leaving the CD as it is; and when my Snaps was ready to power the SN's preamp, I listened a lot: to the bare SN, to SN/HiCap, to SN/Snaps, and in the end the Snaps remained in spite of the fact that even if the bare SN had a good balance, a satisfactory grip on the speakers, wide image and detail (all traits that the HiCap bettered to some extent), powering its preamp with the SNAPS resulted in sweeter, more natural, more articulate timbres of the musical instruments and this was good for me even though other parameters were not better than with the HiCap.

So, if this penchant for power supplies is unavoidable (as is my case), the best things is to have much patience, try, and decide calmly without any preconceived opinion.

M.
 
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