Naim and what cap?

[Discohund]

To go back a little to the original post: although I like the idea of better power supplying and have experimented enough (and spent enough), I haven't found that an extra power supply makes always sense.
And I don't agree on the view of some that a better power supply could be put inside the box first - in some cases there is simply not space enough.
Anyway, when I had CD5/Nait5/Flatcap2x I did careful listening sessions in all possible combinations and in the end I chose the FC2x on the Nait's preamp only, leaving the CD as it is; and when my Snaps was ready to power the SN's preamp, I listened a lot: to the bare SN, to SN/HiCap, to SN/Snaps, and in the end the Snaps remained in spite of the fact that even if the bare SN had a good balance, a satisfactory grip on the speakers, wide image and detail (all traits that the HiCap bettered to some extent), powering its preamp with the SNAPS resulted in sweeter, more natural, more articulate timbres of the musical instruments and this was good for me even though other parameters were not better than with the HiCap.

So, if this penchant for power supplies is unavoidable (as is my case), the best things is to have much patience, try, and decide calmly without any preconceived opinion.

M.

Oh no Another one? What is a SNAPS?

 

[Maxbertola]

Tell me, have you ever heard/met someone who had their Naim amp blow up because of not using correct speaker cables (read: Nac A5)? You seem to know a whole lot about this.

Actually, Naim don't put capacitors on the outgoing signal path and they have designed their (early, mainly) amps so that the speaker cable provides the correct amount of capacity and can be considered, so, an integral part of the amp.
The Naca5 is what it is for this reason, and what Naim really alerts customers against, is the use of some special cables, or the Litz design, that could cause, because of a very different capacity or inductance, some of their power amps to oscillate.
In this case, it is a simple and careful precaution Naim takes; they don't get rich with Naca5, the cable works so it cannot certainly be said that they forbid something or frighten their customers.
I certainly don't know of any Naim amp that has blown because of a cable, in fact I do not know of any Naim amp blown up, but I know of other pieces of gear by other manifacturers that have undergone the strangest accidents and have met the saddests ends.

 

[dave]

Just to add...if NACA5 is too expensive or too unwieldy for your particular installation all you have to do is email Naim and they will provide you with alternative brands that are safe.

 

[positive_energy]

To go back a little to the original post: although I like the idea of better power supplying and have experimented enough (and spent enough), I haven't found that an extra power supply makes always sense.
And I don't agree on the view of some that a better power supply could be put inside the box first - in some cases there is simply not space enough.
Anyway, when I had CD5/Nait5/Flatcap2x I did careful listening sessions in all possible combinations and in the end I chose the FC2x on the Nait's preamp only, leaving the CD as it is; and when my Snaps was ready to power the SN's preamp, I listened a lot: to the bare SN, to SN/HiCap, to SN/Snaps, and in the end the Snaps remained in spite of the fact that even if the bare SN had a good balance, a satisfactory grip on the speakers, wide image and detail (all traits that the HiCap bettered to some extent), powering its preamp with the SNAPS resulted in sweeter, more natural, more articulate timbres of the musical instruments and this was good for me even though other parameters were not better than with the HiCap.

So, if this penchant for power supplies is unavoidable (as is my case), the best things is to have much patience, try, and decide calmly without any preconceived opinion.

M.

I think in your case Max you were just using power supplies as means of controlling the brightness of your source (the CDP). With a better source a *cap would have been better in most peoples experience.

 

[———-]

TeddyСap

 

[lennyw]

In a Sam Tellig column a few Stereophiles ago, he mentioned the English penchant for external PSUs, and stated that this had something to do with the smaller post-war budgets of the average UK purchaser in comparison to their trans-atlantic brothers. This is why, he claimed, one found these upgrade paths built in to UK equipment, Naim being the most famous of these, which is not the case with US stuff. Don't know much about vintage US/UK stuff, so not sure how true this is, but it's an interesting point.

Leaving aside the perceived SQ improvements, I was attracted to Naim for exactly that reason: small budget. Starting with a NAIT3, I bought a 180, then a FC, then a 102, added a NAPSC, then a HC. Reconverted the NAIT3 back to integrated for second system, will sell FC on ebay. Able to do this bit by bit, and (probably not so happy for Naim, all apart from the NAIT) S/H, it has been a method of "improvement" without shelling out mega $£€ in one go. Am still unsure about how much the HC has really bought -- plan to do some proper A/Bing now that the summer weather is waning. The 180 and 102 were significant improvements.

 

[Maxbertola]

Oh no Another one? What is a SNAPS?

The SNAPS was one of the very first power supplies Naim did, back in the early '80s, to power their tuner and subsequently their preamps. It consisted of a Holden&Fisher transformer, a rectifier, a big capacitor and a couple of simple regulators based on an LM317 integrated.
It had four 4-pin DIN sockets and could power two units with a single rail of current.
It was replaced by the HiCap, that had one bigger transformer, two bigger capacitors and different regulators and could only power one unit with two rails of current; and in the meantime Naim preamps had reached .2 status, meaning that the circuit could be powered with two single rails of current.
The SNAPS can, eaisly enough, be adapted to work as a HiCap, changing one of the DIN sockets and re-cabling it. This is what I did, replacing the capacitor with a new one.
There are at least two people here (Per Flemming and myself) believing that the SNAPS still performs better than any FlatCap and can be a serious contender to a HiCap, with or without the replacement of the regulators with 3rd party ones, and is my opnion (in partial answer to positive_energy's post) that this has nothing to do with the frequency balance of the source or the amp, but perhaps with the H&F trafo and the original simplicity of the regulators, all of which sums up, in my case, to a very pleasant correctness of timbre in the sound of the preamp, all other criteria (control of the bass, width and height of the image, dynamics perhaps) being still better managed by a HiCap.

M.

 

[Robert]

In a Sam Tellig column a few Stereophiles ago, he mentioned the English penchant for external PSUs, and stated that this had something to do with the smaller post-war budgets of the average UK purchaser in comparison to their trans-atlantic brothers. This is why, he claimed, one found these upgrade paths built in to UK equipment, Naim being the most famous of these, which is not the case with US stuff. Don't know much about vintage US/UK stuff, so not sure how true this is, but it's an interesting point.

Leaving aside the perceived SQ improvements, I was attracted to Naim for exactly that reason: small budget. Starting with a NAIT3, I bought a 180, then a FC, then a 102, added a NAPSC, then a HC. Reconverted the NAIT3 back to integrated for second system, will sell FC on ebay. Able to do this bit by bit, and (probably not so happy for Naim, all apart from the NAIT) S/H, it has been a method of "improvement" without shelling out mega $£€ in one go. Am still unsure about how much the HC has really bought -- plan to do some proper A/Bing now that the summer weather is waning. The 180 and 102 were significant improvements.

Surely the original idea of the separate PSU for pre amps was to minimise noise getting into high gain circuits?

 

[scottcarpenter]

Ah well sir obviously that amplifier you bought for £1400 has been designed to sound broken without a hi-cap. A flat cap just makes it sound a little less broken- think of it as a high cap that doesn't work really. Other power supplies (Teddy cap Sonic Bliss etc) spoil the 'Naim sound' so should be avoided etc etc

Not sure if your comment is meant to be ironic yet I have had a Sonic Bliss powering a NAC 82 for several years and it certainly doesn't spoil the Naim sound! I also tried it against a Supercap and the Sonic Bliss was far more effective in lifting bass and providing coherency and presence. The Supercap is evidently far more at home with a NAC 52 which can properly use it.

Don't knock the Sonic Bliss, it's remarkably good and obscenely good value for money. TeddyCaps are also superb - in fact I swapped my Naim XPS for a Teddy XPS as I found it far more open and dynamic!

I love the Naim sound and have been addicted to it for a very long time yet a little mixing and matching can reveal some wonderful surprises...

 

[divedeepdog]

I'm another with a SNAPS Addiction, mine are modded with a pairs of Avondale TPR regs in them.

They work well with my Avondale 102, In fact, together with mono 110's I've got 4 matching HF transformers

I'd happily try Hicap/ Teddycap if opertunity arose?

 

[doctorf]

Not sure if your comment is meant to be ironic yet I have had a Sonic Bliss powering a NAC 82 for several years and it certainly doesn't spoil the Naim sound! I also tried it against a Supercap and the Sonic Bliss was far more effective in lifting bass and providing coherency and presence. The Supercap is evidently far more at home with a NAC 52 which can properly use it.

Don't knock the Sonic Bliss, it's remarkably good and obscenely good value for money. TeddyCaps are also superb - in fact I swapped my Naim XPS for a Teddy XPS as I found it far more open and dynamic!

I love the Naim sound and have been addicted to it for a very long time yet a little mixing and matching can reveal some wonderful surprises...

If you're not using genuine Naim power supplies then I'm afraid you are not getting the authentic Naim sound - FACT!

 

[scottcarpenter]

If you're not using genuine Naim power supplies then I'm afraid you are not getting the authentic Naim sound - FACT!

You are very welcome to come and have a listen and judge for yourself. I have owned an XPS, several Supercaps and countless Hicaps an they are wonderful but they are not the only solution. I use a Supercap with my 52 but everything else is up for discussion!

I am however in Sydney which might be a bit prohibitive (although the weather is beautiful at the moment and I make a great cup of tea).

Scott

 

[positive_energy]

If you're not using genuine Naim power supplies then I'm afraid you are not getting the authentic Naim sound - FACT!

Which "authentic Naim sound" are you referring to? They all sound different. Which one is the "authentic" one?

1. Snaps
2. Flatcap
3. Hicap
4. Hicap2
5. Hicap 2 DR
6. Supercap
7. Supercap 2
8. Supercap 2 DR
9. 555
10. 555 DR

 

[Maxbertola]

My old fellow citizen (but not personal acquaintance..) Alessandro Del Piero should be in Sidney now...
I really wish him a good new life in Australia!

M.

 

[naimsg]

Signs of Naim Fanatics illness:

1. Any audio product other than Naim are inferior
2. Naim products should never be mixed with non-Naim products
3. Using any non-Naim power supply will severely corrupt the Naim sound
4. Whatever Naim does are definitely correct and to the benefits of the Naim users
5. Any negative statements made by others on Naim must be from Naim bashers. These Naim bashers must be irrational and unfair to Naim

I bet if Naim sells Naim power distributor strips, Naim room acoustic improvement products and etc, these people claim that using other power distributor strips or other room acoustic products will corrupt the Naim sound as well.

 

[doctorf]

Which "authentic Naim sound" are you referring to? They all sound different. Which one is the "authentic" one?

1. Snaps
2. Flatcap
3. Hicap
4. Hicap2
5. Hicap 2 DR
6. Supercap
7. Supercap 2
8. Supercap 2 DR
9. 555
10. 555 DR

All authentic so the Naim sound will be maintained and you will go to heaven.
Use a Teddy and hell awaits you.

 

[scottcarpenter]

And how many of the Teddy and Avondale equivalents have been directly reviewed against each of them? Are the Naim versions always better?

The thoughts of many people on this forum bare testament to the "FACT" that there are other options and many of them are superb and still deliver the essence of what the Naim source delivers.

 

[scottcarpenter]

Signs of Naim Fanatics illness:

1. Any audio product other than Naim are inferior
2. Naim products should never be mixed with non-Naim products
3. Using any non-Naim power supply will severely corrupt the Naim sound
4. Whatever Naim does are definitely correct and to the benefits of the Naim users
5. Any negative statements made by others on Naim must be from Naim bashers. These Naim bashers must be irrational and unfair to Naim

I bet if Naim sells Naim power distributor strips, Naim room acoustic improvement products and etc, these people claim that using other power distributor strips or other room acoustic products will corrupt the Naim sound as well.

Any cult is dangerous!

 

[naimsg]

I am done A/B comparison of Teddycap vs Hicap and Naim XPS-2 and Teddy XPS. Each has its own strengths, Naim version definitely do not win all of sonic aspects.

 

[doctorf]

And how many of the Teddy and Avondale equivalents have been directly reviewed against each of them? Are the Naim versions always better?

The thoughts of many people on this forum bare testament to the "FACT" that there are other options and many of them are superb and still deliver the essence of what the Naim source delivers.

The Naim sound can only be achieved by using Naim equipment - obvious fact.
If it ain't Naim, it ain't Naim sound.