Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[vacuum_tubes]

nope ICL never had any connection to Fujitsu Siemens and nothing in the ICL portfolio was rebranded as Fujitsu Siemens

ICL became Fujitsu Services

Fujitsu Siemens was a hardware partnership (that originated from Siemens Nixdorf)

I worked for GPT and then SGCS (Siemens GEC Comm Systems) and we had to use the bloody awful Fujitsu Siemens servers for a while instead of the really good Compaq we used before.

Siemens weren’t fantastic but its still an insult to be associated with FJ

 

[Tony L]

nope ICL never had any connection to Fujitsu Siemens and nothing in the ICL portfolio was rebranded as Fujitsu Siemens

“Fujitsu Siemens​

Following the acquisition of Nokia Data in 1991, personal computers and servers were marketed under the ICL brand. This changed when Fujitsu Siemens Computers was formed in 1999 as a joint venture between Fujitsu and Siemens. The joint venture absorbed all ICL's hardware business with the exception of VME mainframes, and all the business of Siemens Nixdorf with the exception of its banking and retail systems. Fujitsu Siemens was merged back into Fujitsu in 2009.”

International Computers Limited - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PS I accept you are largely correct and that I have certainly been using the wrong brand in this thread. I’m just posting this to explain where I got that incorrect impression. As I say I wasn’t there, I’ve never used any ICL kit. I just know a few folk who have and the earlier part of the ICL story is interesting to me in the context of Ferranti and the SSEM which preceded everything (which I know pretty well as I work on the replica at MSI). I obviously need to research forwards a bit further.

 

[suzywong]

Management is as managers always are…..

 

[Cav]

The woman in the TV programme was cleared by the court of appeal sentence quashed exonerated she got £163k plus ‘another small sum’ guess it was £20k ref the class action 2019 she’s been paid in full to date but she can go back and ask aye ask for more but she has to make an application and justify why she should get more money, think she’s automatically entitled to the additional £75k she said she effectively got £100,000 once interest over 10 years was factored in.

This new law proposal should be ‘here guys take this money it won’t compensate you for the trauma of being jailed, losing your house, your job, your reputation and the stress we caused you and your families and btw we are sincerely sorry for all of this stuff and also youno longer have a criminal record and we will post an advert to that effect in the London gazette.’

Making people grovel for what’s due them is unacceptable and unbelievable.

Well, what is on offer will be known when the proposed legislation is published. Not sure where "grovelling" is a feature given all those convicted will be automatically covered.

What would you have happen?

 

[twotone]

Well, what is on offer will be known when the proposed legislation is published. Not sure where "grovelling" is a feature given all those convicted will be automatically covered.

What would you have happen?

I’d exonerate everyone by statute, guilty or innocent doesn’t matter a broad brush approach that would be the end for everyone.

Decent compensation minimum £1m for everyone and I’m not just talking about PM/SPM everyone affected, families, staff the whole works, some staff lost employment because the SPMs were jailed or lost the contract or were sacked some of them lost their house if it was part of the post office, I’m sure some staff were in similar predicaments, some families couldn’t educate their kids beyond school, some people couldn’t get employment and it didn’t just affect the person jailed that jo Hamilton’s son’s a police detective and he had to disclose his mother’s criminal record when he applied for jobs that must’ve had an affect on his career, even solicitors who had to give clients misleading/wrong advice because they themselves were mislead re Horizon, the list is endless.

 

[Paul L]

In the same way we fund migrant hotel spaces, education places and pay for their families to come to the UK, in-work benefits allowing employers to suppress wages of everyone else due to ‘market forces’: I’d like to see more than just financial compensation for those who have suffered consequential to PM/SPM with health and dental benefits, education and adult learning opportunities and other support the clever folk on here can think of.

In other words, if there is a will and a campaign then the financial culpability of those proven during the process (hopefully politicians, PO, FS as appropriate and not ultimately tax payers) should be used to put together a support system to restore lives meaningfully and not just with some money in the pocket.

I’m as outraged and sickened as everyone else by the whole story as it unfolds.

 

[wulbert]

The heat needs to be firmly and continually directed at the UK government who presided over this scandal. They were in charge. It happened on their watch. They took on the responsibility for running the country willingly.
Sure, companies Fk up, institutions act despicably. But this lot were in charge, knew what was going on and did nothing, time after time. It's on them.
Also, why TF was a privatised company allowed to retain Crown prosecution powers?
EDIT: P.O. isn't privatised of course. Ltd Co. owned by Gov. My mistake, got carried away. Thanks to @twotone for the correction.

 

[wacko]

I'm beginning to wonder when was the last time a UK Government did something right on any important issue ? Probably deserves a (very short) separate thread.

 

[twotone]

I'm beginning to wonder when was the last time a UK Government did something right on any important issue ? Probably deserves a (very short) separate thread.

This latest issue is just another Hillsborough without the deaths or the amount of deaths, four suicides that we know of plus lives ruined over a 20 year period, they knew from 2002 that there was remote access to PM/SPMs accounts, they had legal advice in 2013 re unsafe prosecutions and they still prosecuted up to until 2015.

There's a list, Orgreave, Hillsborough, PO Horizon, Grenfell etc.

 

[twotone]

The heat needs to be firmly and continually directed at the UK government who presided over this scandal. They were in charge. It happened on their watch. They took on the responsibility for running the country willingly.
Sure, companies Fk up, institutions act despicably. But this lot were in charge, knew what was going on and did nothing, time after time. It's on them.
Also, why TF was a privatised company allowed to retain Crown prosecution powers?

The PO is not a private company it's owned by the Government hence the billion quid thrown down a huge cover up hole all the while paying millions in salaries and bonuses to anyone who worked there for any old shite, talk about having your snout in the trough, a company losing millions of pounds every year paying a bonus of £450,000 to a CEO for cooperating with a statuary public enquiry, you couldn't make it up meanwhile thousands of people's lives were impacted by the cover up but lawyers, executives, investigators, tea ladies, secretaries et-all were all paid fortunes to continue the lie that Horizon was infallible.

Some people really should be doing jail time, I'd start with the lawyers.

 

[Minio]

Does anyone know of the Post Office figures for sub-postmaster prosecutions before and after the introduction of Horizon?

That might tell a story.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

It's very illustrative of a mindset that pervades the upper echelons of society, I think: that they, themselves, are untouchable, and the proles are expendable.

 

[twotone]

Does anyone know of the Post Office figures for sub-postmaster prosecutions before and after the introduction of Horizon?

That might tell a story.

Think the total prosecutions from 1991-2015 were 900 odd, from 1999/2000 ie Horizon era there were 730 I think, the prosecutions stopped in 2015, at one point they were prosecuting one person a week.

"Between 1991 and 2015 there were 918 successful prosecutions brought by the Post Office against subpostmasters, subpostmistresses and other employees."

Private prosecutions after the Post Office debacle

Private criminal prosecutions, those brought in the criminal courts by corporate entities or individuals, have increased in recent years as…

www.lexology.com

 

[twotone]

The Post Office as a private prosecutor

The Post Office is in a perhaps unique position as a private prosecutor, and it is that unique position that gave the CCRC the greatest cause for concern upon its referral to the Court of Appeal. Historically the Royal Mail was a public authority. Following the Postal Services Act 2011 a majority of shares were floated on the London Stock Exchange. The government sold its remaining shares in 2015 thereby ending 499 years of state ownership.

Royal Mail solicitors are believed to the earliest known formal investigators and prosecutors in the world and their origins can be traced as far back as 1683. With the introduction of the Penny Black in 1840, the first postage revenue stamp, postal services became more accessible to members of the public and postal traffic volume rose. Inevitably so too did associated crime. In 1883 the Missing Letter Branch was renamed the Confidential Enquiry Branch, later becoming the Investigation Branch. The investigations undertaken were serious and varied, including a key role in the detection and capture of the Great Train Robbers.

Following full privatisation in 2015 the Royal Mail Group retained its investigative branch and its legal department and continued to prosecute about 150 cases per year as a private prosecutor. While being granted no investigative powers it has regularly undertaken joint investigations with the police and other investigative bodies that do have statutory investigative powers. It was granted access to the Police National Computer system for intelligence and prosecution purposes. It had financial investigators appointed by the National Crime Agency for the purposes of undertaking financial investigations for restraint and confiscation proceedings, and Royal Mail Group was included within the list of “Relevant Public Authorities” under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 designated to grant authorisations for the carrying out of directed surveillance to investigate crime.

Private prosecutions after the Post Office debacle

Private criminal prosecutions, those brought in the criminal courts by corporate entities or individuals, have increased in recent years as…

www.lexology.com

 

[twotone]

There's a table here with all of the convictions from 1991 it's from a FOI request from the journalist Nick Wallis

Basically there were 494 postmasters prosecuted, 242 assistants prosecuted, 152 employees prosecuted and 30 unknown persons prosecuted.

There's no data from pre 1991 except that there was a total of 104 people prosecuted, 36 PMs, 29 assistants, 20 employees and 19 unknown persons.

All of those people in the table were convicted but there may have been more people prosecuted and or convicted by Royal Mail and other organisations.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/prosecutions_and_convictions_sin/response/1576986/attach/4/FOI2020%2000186%20FOI%20Request%20Response.pdf

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

He knocked back a CBE said he wouldn't accept it whilst Vennells had hers he's saying now if he was offered a knight hood he take it because Vennels has handed her award back.

TBH I'd prefer him being offerred a place in the HoL. From there he could say whatever he chose that exposes the whole issue, and have a big audience hear it without restraint.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I remember listening to a series on Radio 4 about the Horizon scandal, at least a couple of years ago. At the time I remember thinking repeatedly, "How could this possibly happen?", "What were the Post Office thinking?". I'm still at a loss to understand what powered the utter insanity and cruelty of the Post Office's actions. What was the engine pushing this?

Money, status, and power without accountability. The normal perks of a 'high position' that let the person feel their 'superiority' is recognised and rewarded.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I’m absolutely no fan of Labour. They are useless, cowardly and incompetent, and not immune to corruption (largely petty expenses theft etc, not the £multi-million Tory stuff), but they are at least conceptually on the side of working people being born out of the trade union movement.

The LP's problem is that it keeps on choosing leaders that can get past the lies and distortions of the Tory press, just to get into power... on the basis of not using it to make the changes that we need to cease being hagridden by Tory donors and pressmasters.

Thus genuinely 'leftwing' or more-than-mildly 'radiacal' leaders get monstered and the party can't get enough votes to win. The result is we get a party with leadership like T B Liar who spouts what the Prince of Darkess tells him to spout, and then behave in a way the press won't lie so much about. Such leaders are useful for the wealthy as it lets then occasionally show the Tories they aren't totally indispensible.

The result is a party that keeps hoping for the opposite. A Leader who will present a 'mild' picture when campaigning, but turn out to be a genuine change for the better once in Office. Sadly, that hasn't happened for many decades.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

... I’ve never personally worked on any ICL kit. Never been in the room with any other than a visit to TNMOC many years ago. All IBM, Compaq etc where I worked! I’m way out of date anyway, the last IT contract I had was back in 2001 I think!

FWIW My first computer was IIRC an ICL1900. Paper tapes and punched Fortran IBM cards. 8-] Second was an American 'mini' where you started off loading the OS using a row of toggle switches to teach it how to read a papar tape that held the actual OS and then run. I'm old!

 

[Tony L]

Second was an American 'mini' where you started off loading the OS using a row of toggle switches to teach it how to read a papar tape that held the actual OS and then run. I'm old!

A DEC PDP of some description? Again never worked on one, but they are such cool things with a lovely mid-century modern design aesthetic and colour pallet. A lot of the IBM mainframes are remarkably stylish things too. Cool terminals, control panels with loads of switches and blinking lights, giant tape machines etc. Exactly what a computer should be!