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MDAC First Listen (part 00100000)

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Regarding the software side, it should be fairly well doable. RPi seems to have its own kernel repository,
https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux ,
which contains the necessary bcm2708-i2s driver as well as some support for other existing RPi-compatible DACs,
https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/tree/rpi-3.12.y/sound/soc/bcm

Looking at the per-DAC kernel modules, like https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/blob/rpi-3.12.y/sound/soc/bcm/rpi-dac.c , implementing a new "driver" for MDAC2 seems rather easy. Some tuning may be required, but shouldn't be anywhere as complex as ie. making a windows asio driver.

The RPi code is of dubious quality and not upstream Linux. An alternative to using it would be going with an iMX6 board. They have very good upstream support (just install debian armhf) and come in various size and shapes.

For example:
http://www.dh-electronics.com/DHCOM_iMX6_DE.DHElectronics
or
http://www.variscite.com/products/system-on-module-som/cortex-a9/var-som-mx6-cpu-freescale-imx6

Both seem to have the same board and pin layout for the different configurations, meaning people can order a 'cpu' to size and plug it into their MDAC2. Some can do a quad core with 4GB, others a single core with 512MB, whatever they fancy.

A single core configuration should be well powerful enough to decode FLACs I think.
 
It's really shame to hear that only MDAC2 L3 will be upgradeable to L4 RPi. That means that us who doesn't need ADC functionality will be punished by not be able to have streamer option later.

John, is it possible to reconsider this?

Morph3R,

While there is no technical reason we could not jump from L2 to L4 - however financially building the L4 from the L3 gives us an extra GBP200 over the L2 version - which we will put into our food funds and will help me offset my personal investment :)

Please consider that the only funds we “live on” from the MDAC2 project is the development "instalments" as the PCB is sold at our cost - we will make no money on the PCB itself.

There is a significant amount of extra man hours & design tools required to design-in the RPi (or what ever embedded Processor board we decided upon).

If you consider how many L4 we well eventually sell - maybe 50 units? which is a grand total of GBP5000 (additional funds over the MDAC L3). It will require Dominik and myself a few months each developing the L4 version.

I'll also need to pay the tooling and artwork costs for a new rear panel + with a Min. order Qty. - with such small Qtys. its not economically feasible to manufacture two versions of L4 rear panel (with and without holes for the ADC input connectors).

At the moment, I've invested a significant amount into the development of the MDAC2 that its costing me more then we will make from the project, this does not bother me too much as the intent is to design the best DAC I can without "commercial" pressure - I'm doing what I do best and I'm very pleased with the results so far. I'd like to stress that I’m very grateful to everyone who has sponsored the MDAC2 project making this possible.

Hopefully you will not feel I’m being too mean by “limiting” the jump to L4 from L3 units only.
 
The RPi code is of dubious quality and not upstream Linux. An alternative to using it would be going with an iMX6 board. They have very good upstream support (just install debian armhf) and come in various size and shapes.

For example:
http://www.dh-electronics.com/DHCOM_iMX6_DE.DHElectronics
or
http://www.variscite.com/products/system-on-module-som/cortex-a9/var-som-mx6-cpu-freescale-imx6

Both seem to have the same board and pin layout for the different configurations, meaning people can order a 'cpu' to size and plug it into their MDAC2. Some can do a quad core with 4GB, others a single core with 512MB, whatever they fancy.

A single core configuration should be well powerful enough to decode FLACs I think.

The choice of Embedded Micro does not need to be taken at the moment - so I'm interested in the opinions of others :) - and as far as I'm concerned I'll only be designing the hardware.

I have no idea about software / Linux, when Jiri starts posting his stuff on Linux I'm totally lost, its way above my head... I was upset when I was dragged away from Dos 6.22.... I'm still happily on XP!

Dominiks going to look into the RPi module to understand the hardware limitations WRT 384Fs / 768Fs 32bits... Lucky we have the FPGA that can reformat any suitable serial stream.
 
John

Mdac Premium Fusion arrived safe and well, initial listening is very promising, beating the Mirus we had on loan for a few weeks by some margin, especially the lower registers...but more later and my current fav the Perreaux DP32....:confused: :):)

Many thanks, well worth the wait and will prob sign up for the L3

Kind regards

Graham

Graham,

We are very glad your happy with your Fusioned MDAC - also looking forward to more feedback :)
 
Sorry if i am being slow, but given that the device is going to have ethernet input anyway, what would the advantage be in using a usb dongle (especially one which looks like a separate box, not a neat little key) rather than a conventional wireless bridge connected via ethernet?

Maybe I'm missing the point, but the USB WiFi dingle plugs into one of the RPi USB ports - its tiny, unobtrusive and the whole point being its Wireless....
 
I'm not sure if the above has already answered my question (a lot of this tech detail has gone over my head), but how is the digital music stream going to be sent from the RPi to the MDAC? Is there going to be some dedicated clock-locked internal (internal to the MDAC case I mean) connection, or is the plan to use async USB? If Async USB, then is the physical connection going to be internal, or will there by some way to connect the RPi to the MDAC's external USB input?

Again, apols if these are dumb questions :)



Hi Tim,

Yes, the "streamer" is clocked via the MDAC2's Audio master clock - the MDAC2's will be the clock master.
 
I have no idea about software / Linux, when Jiri starts posting his stuff on Linux I'm totally lost, its way above my head... I was upset when I was dragged away from Dos 6.22.... I'm still happily on XP!

Right, sorry about :) I guess that shows what I do all day. I suppose me and Jiri ought to have a beer some time.
 
Sorry if i am being slow, but given that the device is going to have ethernet input anyway, what would the advantage be in using a usb dongle (especially one which looks like a separate box, not a neat little key) rather than a conventional wireless bridge connected via ethernet?
Welcome to the world of more than one possibility (TM). :) If a separate box suits you better, go for it.

I guess I mixed up two slightly different things - wireless functionality and the "look & feel" of the solution. From my point of view, having the wifi "card" directly accessible from the target system is just more flexible (in terms of what I can do with it from software) and possibly more secure (also welcome to the world of many security holes where vendors just don't care).

I'm not sure if the above has already answered my question (a lot of this tech detail has gone over my head), but how is the digital music stream going to be sent from the RPi to the MDAC? Is there going to be some dedicated clock-locked internal (internal to the MDAC case I mean) connection, or is the plan to use async USB? If Async USB, then is the physical connection going to be internal, or will there by some way to connect the RPi to the MDAC's external USB input?
JohnW would have to answer that. My guess is either via i2s (internal bus, via several pins) or using USB or SPDIF somehow (likely via some internal connection as well).
Either way, MDAC should appear just like a regular ALSA device in the system.

The RPi code is of dubious quality and not upstream Linux. An alternative to using it would be going with an iMX6 board. They have very good upstream support (just install debian armhf) and come in various size and shapes.

For example:
http://www.dh-electronics.com/DHCOM_iMX6_DE.DHElectronics
or
http://www.variscite.com/products/system-on-module-som/cortex-a9/var-som-mx6-cpu-freescale-imx6

Both seem to have the same board and pin layout for the different configurations, meaning people can order a 'cpu' to size and plug it into their MDAC2. Some can do a quad core with 4GB, others a single core with 512MB, whatever they fancy.

A single core configuration should be well powerful enough to decode FLACs I think.
Yes, the RPi code is not what gets normally accepted upstream (IIRC it doesn't even pass checkpatch.pl), yes, I know what it's like to maintain out-of-tree modules, yes, I would much prefer cleaner engineering solutions (like not having to pass Ethernet via USB), but the target audience isn't Linux/Unix hackers, it's mostly (pardon the term) Apple-grown people, who expect stuff to "just work", and the vast community behind RPi with their ready-made images is more powerful (in this case) than a bare-bone board with basic Linux distribution.

I would personally prefer the latter (as I hate maintaining non-upstream hacks), but I'm not going to be one of those L4 people as the one embedded solution I already have (with OpenWRT) is more than enough for me.
Also, the target audience is going to be anywhere from ~10 to ~50 people.

In the end, it depends on the use cases John decides to address.
 
Just catching up with the thread, so this is going to be a bit of a random collection of ideas...
RPi worked fine with the picore player squeezebox and would stream to 24/96 at least, but I couldn't make the USB work with the MDAC but that isn't relevant to this idea. Its now dangling behind my TV acting as xbmc box.
I then tried the Wandboard with the community squeeze, that worked really well and may have sounded better than the SBT (I refuse to believe my ears) but unless you shut down the OS before powering off it seems to trash itself!
A friend has a RPi with an add on DAC on the i2s bus, and that makes a really nice streamer, if not quite MDAC quality.
On balance, I think the RPi is worth pursuing.
Back panel: why not design just one back panel for all versions and blank off unused sockets? Would this reduce costs to a degree?
Very excited, the MDAC is turning into my holy audio grail.
 
Hi Tim,

Yes, the "streamer" is clocked via the MDAC2's Audio master clock - the MDAC2's will be the clock master.

Thanks John, I somehow feel better about that solution than I would about Async USB. I know this is irrational of me though!

What prompted me to chip in is that I span up a CD on my much neglected CDQ the other day, for the first time in probably a year or more, and I must say it still sounds bloody marvellous. My illogical brain started to persuade me that the clock locking was part of that, but obviously this is not going to be the case when my SBT and MDAC are linked by Async USB.

Audio madness gets us all sometimes :)
 
Not completely relevant, but I've investigated my wandboard this evening, and it appears to be dead. It also looks like the community squeeze project that I bought it for is also dead... Shame, but I suspect something similar will come along soon.
I think for squeezebox junkies with MDAC 2 L4 the picore player may be the answer.
 
Following the comments of jirij and peterzz, I'd rather have a 'proper' SoC than an RPI.

The imx6 should be capable of some serious dsp in its own right
 
John, I'm not sure if I should go for the MDAC2 L5 setup (the one with the 2x200W Amp already included) or the L6, the one with the speakers..

I guess I'll stay with the L5, what do you think?
:)

Michael
 
Following the comments of jirij and peterzz, I'd rather have a 'proper' SoC than an RPI.

The imx6 should be capable of some serious dsp in its own right

Chris, Jiri and Peter,

I'm happy to design in the imx6 SoC into the MDAC2 L4 but I have absolutely no idea about the software.

If Dominik confirms it has the I/O's to support our internal Audio needs, can the imx6 support Squeezebox player, DLNA, and streamer apps? - I would be reliant on you guys to advise and support the software....

Let it be clear, I have zero idea what I'm doing here WRT Linux software (and nor do I want to) - I'll just design and manufacture the hardware :)

If you all feel the imx6 is the way to go then I'm Ok with this (so long as Dominik can cobble together the Audio I/O).
 
John, I'm not sure if I should go for the MDAC2 L5 setup (the one with the 2x200W Amp already included) or the L6, the one with the speakers..

I guess I'll stay with the L5, what do you think?
:)

Michael

Michael,

I suggests the MDAC2 L10 with Direct drive ESL amp :)
 
Jim,

I could send you a replacement Mainboard - and you can swap it out with your faulty one - just as you would upgrading the MDAC2 PCB.

I'll need to test the PCB that I have here which will take a few days - and once you have swapped your board and confirmed everything is OK for a couple of weeks, then if you could please return your original board..

This will be cheaper then shipping the whole unit and you will be back up a listening sooner :)

I can talk you though the PCB swap over the phone....

Hi John,
I tried to PM you, but I'm not certain it went through as I got a message that your box is full. Any luck on the PCB?

Thanks,
Jim
 
Chris, Jiri and Peter,

I'm happy to design in the imx6 SoC into the MDAC2 L4 but I have absolutely no idea about the software.

If Dominik confirms it has the I/O's to support our internal Audio needs, can the imx6 support Squeezebox player, DLNA, and streamer apps? - I would be reliant on you guys to advise and support the software....

Let it be clear, I have zero idea what I'm doing here WRT Linux software (and nor do I want to) - I'll just design and manufacture the hardware :)

If you all feel the imx6 is the way to go then I'm Ok with this (so long as Dominik can cobble together the Audio I/O).
I'd say let's leave it for now - it's still unclear how many people will have L4 and what these people will want to do with it. Perhaps I'm wrong and most of them will be capable DIYers.

The imx6 can support whatever you install on it yourself. That's both the problem and the feature.

PS: There are even more options available, http://www.dh-electronics.com/Overview___Computer_On_Module.DHElectronics?ActiveID=1826
 
I find the idea of an embedded pi attractive as an audio player (maybe server) because there are lots of developers and existing audio software. I have the impression that i am not alone in this. Is this the case with the other boards being suggested?

The other use for the embedded micro was to allow access to setup and monitor the m_dac. Does this require significant developer input? (genuine question not rhetorical: I have no idea)

I would have thought that it would be better to have something which definitely worked and was likely to work for the foreseeable future rather than having something technically better but for which there was no support.
 
Hi John,
I tried to PM you, but I'm not certain it went through as I got a message that your box is full. Any luck on the PCB?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim,

Sorry I did not get a chance to test a PCB yet - I'll get one on the bench today and test it for a couple of days, Please forgive me for the delay - I have so much happening here ATM.
 
I find the idea of an embedded pi attractive as an audio player (maybe server) because there are lots of developers and existing audio software. I have the impression that i am not alone in this. Is this the case with the other boards being suggested?

The other use for the embedded micro was to allow access to setup and monitor the m_dac. Does this require significant developer input? (genuine question not rhetorical: I have no idea)

I would have thought that it would be better to have something which definitely worked and was likely to work for the foreseeable future rather than having something technically better but for which there was no support.

Adam,

This is also my question! again I have no idea about the Linux software Eco system, it seem very fragmented - with various builds for different platforms, its all very confusing.

At least with the RPi there seems to be a dedicated community. The way I see it is that we need software support, not the greatest processing power and the latest features... it just needs to be a Streamer + DNLA support & internet radio etc.
 
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