sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
So don't.
LP 12 'sound'
- Thread starter matfff
- Start date
So don't.
I think that's why the LP12 has lasted so long, the designers got the fundamentals correct from the word go.
I also agree about the pre-Cirkus bearing. I have two LP12s, one with a Cirkus and one pre-Cirkus. I also regularly build both types, sold a pre-Cirkus yesterday. I like both in the right context, they are different, but if I had to live with just one it would be the pre-Cirkus. It makes music come alive in a way the Cirkus doesn't. It's a shame the only source of these bearings is used ones and good used ones are getting scarce. I keep a mint one in a box in case I ever decide to fit one to my main deck.
Was it in the nineties Linn dropped the fluted plinths? I suspect they felt they looked dated at that time, correctly I think. Fashions change, come and go. Didn't see the gray coming though.
When I sell an LP12 I let the buyer hear it against mine so that they can hear the difference a few extra grand makes. Not because I want to show off, but because I want them to hear that a correctly built and balanced LP12 of any price is a great sounding and very enjoyable record player. You don't need to spend thousands to get a great LP12 and sometimes the 'better' ones lose the fun in the quest for refinement.
Joe
pfm Member
I was more asking the question .." so, you have heard them all " Thats a lot of plinths to analyse with no changes to the rest of the deck...just changing plinths leaving arms , cartridges, power supplies etc left exactly the same for comparison purposes .
Yes, I have listened to quite a few, with the rest of the deck the same. What's your point? Do you have one?I was more asking the question .." so, you have heard them all " Thats a lot of plinths to analyse with no changes to the rest of the deck...just changing plinths leaving arms , cartridges, power supplies etc left exactly the same for comparison purposes .
Joe
pfm Member
Yes....I disagree with you.
As an aside I would have liked to listen to the LP12 that Linn made using Panzerholz....it would be interesting I think.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
There's two interesting things about this plinth - although I understand it's Linn's version of "Panzerholtz":
1. the material; beech ply (I think) impregnated with resin under pressure, and - perhaps more importantly
2. it's machined from a solid block - so they made the plinth sides thicker than those in the old, assembled plinth ... and so were able to put a rebate on the top of the plinth sides for the top-plate (rather than the top-plate resting inside the plinth, on supporting stringers). This makes a more direct path for top-plate vibrations (created by the motor) to travel down and dissipate in the plinth.
Ah, well, that’s OK. I’ve had around 7 different plinths over the years, all with the Aro and a DV. 5 different wooden ones, including the one I have now, a metal one from Mober, and an all singing, all dancing one with top plate, arm board and feet built in. I couldn’t hear a difference.
david ellwood
Kirabosi Kognoscente
Are mober making a new plinth? Because their previous one came in lots of pieces that needed screwing together.
That’s the one I had. Good design, fit and finish not up to snuff. Edmund now in UK, no idea what his future plans are.
NickofWimbledon
pfm Member
If that is what you hear, then that’s all that need bother you.
Personally I heard absolutely no difference when swapping from an early (and slightly warped) black plinth to a modern (and properly perpendicular) cherry version, though I don’t assume that those who can tell one from another are necessarily lying.
Multiple listeners who are not obviously deaf, dishonest or delusional noted a difference between those and the metal-bodied Stiletto and we all preferred the latter. However, in our comparison, the cherry LP12 ‘only’ had a Lingo 4 while the Stiletto had a Radikal 1. Having heard otherwise matching decks with each PS, I don’t attribute all of the difference to the PS change, but that is not readily provable now.
If you have tested a Stiletto (or maybe even just a new top-plate) against a standard plinth, or compared an old and unbraced plinth with a new one, it would be interesting to hear the details.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
I'm not at all sure that one person's judgement makes anything true.
Anyway, having some small understanding of the development of a record deck from scratch, I can promise you that every single element of the deck, platter, plinth, motor, bearings, belts and etc etc makes a small but discernable difference and it's fiddling with these tiny changes until harmony is discovered that matters. Woods and metals all resonate in different ways and those changes are measurable and can be significant.
Somebody then saying that they didn't hear any change is only relevant to that one person. Great if they are happy. Walk on.
Then of course one goes and adds an arm, and wires and a cartridge! Those sound even more discernible.. I never did find Nirvhana although the Hana ML on the Palmer 2.5 was damn near perfect. Just my opinion ofc
Anyway, having some small understanding of the development of a record deck from scratch, I can promise you that every single element of the deck, platter, plinth, motor, bearings, belts and etc etc makes a small but discernable difference and it's fiddling with these tiny changes until harmony is discovered that matters. Woods and metals all resonate in different ways and those changes are measurable and can be significant.
Somebody then saying that they didn't hear any change is only relevant to that one person. Great if they are happy. Walk on.
Then of course one goes and adds an arm, and wires and a cartridge! Those sound even more discernible.. I never did find Nirvhana although the Hana ML on the Palmer 2.5 was damn near perfect. Just my opinion ofc
Paul Mc
pfm Member
shame about the metal equipment standsI prefer non-fluted myself, which is ironic as I keep ending up with fluted ones! Although at the time when I bought my fluted walnut one it was a limited edition but, Linn being the feckers that they are, now sell fluted plinths as standard again.
I used to think the flutes looked dated, and I think they did, but the LP12 has now been around for so long it has transcended any notion of being dated and is effectively timeless.
I don't think I'll ever be able to sell an LP12 this cheaply again. The cost of parts just keeps going up. I just hope it goes to the right home.
david ellwood
Kirabosi Kognoscente
It’s the glass that kills the music, fraim is much the same. A sound org table with an chipboard top takes some beating
gez
pfm Member
True, but it's not actually that important if the LPs noise is "pure" or not. It's a comparative test. You are looking for change rather than absolute values in the test. Obviously you'd need to make at least 10 or so measurements with each new board to get an averaged out response. But then when you change to a different board you will either get results that basically are the same to within the "noise" or variance, or you'll see some clear differences showing up as peaks or suck outs at frequencies where they didn't exist before.
Then you need to be convinced that the changes are audible in any way of course.
Paul Mc
pfm Member
It's easily beaten.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
For me the key is a result which has been repeatedly shown in controlled tests.
This is where teste are done on a blind AA/AB/BB/BA randomised basis and the listener is invited to say if what they heard was "the same" (i.e. AA or BB) or "different" (AB or BA). There is a consistent tendency for people to say 'different' even when the truth was "same". In part this is because our hearing *varies* with time *and* with exposure to sound. So hearing something changes how your audiatory system lets you "hear" when the same thing is replayed. Plus, of course, factors like the room changing temperature, you moving your head a bit, etc, etc.
The result is many decide they can hear "differences" *and assign the wrong 'cause' to them.
