LP 12 'sound'
- Thread starter matfff
- Start date
Seriously? Can one catch delusion from another post on PFM?
Agreed:
* all spkrs sound the same.
* and all food tastes the same.
(And all wine tastes the same!)I would have to say that if you don't see how a plinth can affect the sound then you have no idea how a turntable works.
A record player picks up vibrations for a living. Its day job is to pick up and amplify the ones deliberately put into the record but that wavy arm thing on top will also happily collect any other noise that comes its way. It sees no difference between the groove in the record vibrating underneath it and the whole record vibrating. It's dumb that way. So vibration fed up into the turntable from the support can be picked up and amplified. And as they are amplified a big lot, even ickle vibrations can end up being heard.
The plinth on an LP12 connects the worky bits of the record player to the thing it is sitting on. Any vibration coming up through the floor, has to pass through the plinth to get to the arm thingy. And they will get through but different woods or materials vibrate in different ways so each plinth will let different vibrations through. So will sound different. The wood plinth will add colour to the sound. Part of the warm tone the typical LP12 has is the sound of the plinth.
There's more going on than that, I'm trying to keep it simple, but it's better to think of the LP12 plinth as akin to the body of a Stratocaster. It's something that's actually contributing to the final sound and, in the opinion of many, in a largely pleasant way.
No it isn't.
I prefer non-fluted myself, which is ironic as I keep ending up with fluted ones! Although at the time when I bought my fluted walnut one it was a limited edition but, Linn being the feckers that they are, now sell fluted plinths as standard again.Sorry, but i still prefer a non fluted plinth.
The fluted ones look very dated to me now but each to their own.
The one that Mr pig is selling does look very good value though
I used to think the flutes looked dated, and I think they did, but the LP12 has now been around for so long it has transcended any notion of being dated and is effectively timeless.
I don't think I'll ever be able to sell an LP12 this cheaply again. The cost of parts just keeps going up. I just hope it goes to the right home.
It looks good so Im sure that you will find a buyer.I prefer non-fluted myself, which is ironic as I keep ending up with fluted ones! Although at the time when I bought my fluted walnut one it was a limited edition but, Linn being the feckers that they are, now sell fluted plinths as standard again.
I used to think the flutes looked dated, and I think they did, but the LP12 has now been around for so long it has transcended any notion of being dated and is effectively timeless.
I don't think I'll ever be able to sell an LP12 this cheaply again. The cost of parts just keeps going up. I just hope it goes to the right home.
I thought that prices of complete units with whatever arm seemed to to be coming down slightly.
I keep looking on eBay etc to see what the variations sell for, just out of interest really.
Im not sure what I would buy if I sold mine but I cant see us getting rid of our records any time soon though because they evoke so many memories.
My heart keeps telling me that I want a TD124 in a very compact plinth, just like Tony’s but the relative complexity of them puts me off a bit.
I definitely like the idler sound though and I try to get my LP12 to sound as much like that as I possibly can.
You think so? I thought the opposite. I don't see much at all selling for around £600 and even ancient unserviced deck with the original cartridge and bent armboard selling for more than that. More recent, higher spec decks are better material value although I still think almost all LP12s are overpriced.
I was indulging in sarcasm, M'sieur P.
But this is a great post:
I can't believe that matfff & kraus are not "stirring the possum" ... as we say here in Oz (rather than being just plain ignorant). Hence, I had my popcorn ready.
Well, I've met people who were quite ernest in their idiotic yet dogmatic beliefs.
Well, in my admittedly limited experience, based on listening to a number of Garrards and a Lenco, they have a very forceful and propulsive presentation.
Of the Garrards in particular, I have noticed more of an emphasis on the bass and drum underpinnings than on most belt drives that I have heard.
I like the sound of my Linn too but it is getting quite far from the Linn hierarchy now even though I spend as little as possible on It. lol
That's what I hear. I prefer the more fluid LP12 but I could happily live with a Garrard.
A deliberate misinterpretation? Or are you just obtuse?
I didn't say that the plinth in itself doesn't have an effect. You must be obtuse as well.
Toaster
pfm Member
I've owned umpteen different turntables- I still have versions of most of them- and I've often been able to try the same arms and cartridges on different decks. They can sound very different indeed, IME.
I agree with Mr Pig: the things are basically very sensitive seismographs, which will not only read the record, but also any vibrations in the structure of the cartridge, arm, turntable and whatever it's sat on.
The smallest groove modulations are absolutely minute, so even miniscule vibrations in the turntable's structure can obscure the wanted information from the record. I recall the introduction of the old digest-sized Hi-fi Choice Turntables and Tonearms editions comparing the size of the smallest modulations with the wavelength of red light!
As the engineering quality of the turntable system improves, I'd say that you tend to hear a better ratio of music from the record to record player and support structure noise.
Since everything vibrates, one reason record players can sound significantly different to each other, is that the materials they're made of, the quantity used, and how they are used changes the way the structure of the deck vibrates and contributes to the character of the sound you hear. Personal taste will dictate which compromise is preferred.
I agree with Mr Pig: the things are basically very sensitive seismographs, which will not only read the record, but also any vibrations in the structure of the cartridge, arm, turntable and whatever it's sat on.
The smallest groove modulations are absolutely minute, so even miniscule vibrations in the turntable's structure can obscure the wanted information from the record. I recall the introduction of the old digest-sized Hi-fi Choice Turntables and Tonearms editions comparing the size of the smallest modulations with the wavelength of red light!
As the engineering quality of the turntable system improves, I'd say that you tend to hear a better ratio of music from the record to record player and support structure noise.
Since everything vibrates, one reason record players can sound significantly different to each other, is that the materials they're made of, the quantity used, and how they are used changes the way the structure of the deck vibrates and contributes to the character of the sound you hear. Personal taste will dictate which compromise is preferred.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
erm, yes you did. Twice.
seyles
Retired Child
I had a 401 with an SME 3009 At95e, thrown together in a home made MDF plinth, my memory of it was solid, stable with good bass, but lots of rumble; this compared to the LP12 ittok k18 which was just better.
Sold it to one of the 2nd hand dealers for next to nothing back in ’94, just before they started to become popular and sell for stupid money, not an issue at the time as I got it for free from a library that was throwing it out!
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
IIRC Noel K. did some articles in the past where he showed measured resonances in the tonearm and deck, etc. The point being that a stylus tracking a groove will tend to also pass some vibrations on to the arm, and from thence it can get to the deck, etc. The real question/doubt is how audible they may be in affecting the electronic output. One advantage of something like the Shure V15 is that it tends to apply much less vibration to the arm than some other carts that have high moving tip mass and low compliance. Hence less fussy in this regard.
gez
pfm Member
If one were talking about electronics I'd agree. But a turntable is an electro-mechanical device and thus is susceptible to vibrations. Different materials have different characterstic natural vibrations (just look at classical instruments), all of which have the potential to impact the "measuring" device that is the stylus/cart in different ways.
Of course it's all very easily testable. Sit a stylus on a record that isn't moving. Play some wide band noise through speakers and measure the frequency spectrum of what ever comes out of the cartrige terminals. Change the plinth on the turn table and repeat, see what (if anything) changes to the output then debate as to whether the differences could in any way be audible once actual music is being played.
Alternatively use an LP with wideband noise on it (if such a thing exists) and do the same comparison.