Loudspeakers too far apart?

[naka]

To this point, my experiences for the past 5 years in this dedicated listening room, and with at least 6 pairs of speakers (very different designs) can translate to this:
- the rule of 3rds and 5fts is my starting point
- the 1 1/2 distance to the speakers (of the distance between speakers) is my starting point
- the speakers position is easy to feel when the bass is right = tight and clear
- the equilateral triangle set-up don’t work in my room, because makes the listening position in a bad spot acoustically
- every speaker has a different position in the room
- minimum distance to the front wall = 80cm
- minimum distance to the side walls = 63cm
- average distance between speakers = 185 to 215cm (the room’s width is 362cm)
- most speakers work best without toe-in (the manufacturers recommendation) and only the Roksan Darius work better with severe toe-in.
- more distance to the speakers (usually that 1 1/2 ”rule”) work better in therms of consistency, balance, no sibilance and more air between instruments and voices… at the expense of some immediacy, soundstage spread and imaging. I prefer to have a palpable essential part of the massage than a cinemascope picture with less body. My favorite music is jazz and blues from the 1950-70’s period and I don’t have audiophile records or pressings.

In the end, although I like to know “the rules” for me they are only a starting point, because nothing substitutes hard experience. Every month I know more about the subject… and know nothing really

 

[Mike Reed]

If there was an award for thread most likely to misinform and mislead this would be it.

Equilateral triangles? FFS!

I like it; reflects what I wrote overleaf but more bluntly !!!! If one MUST listen by regular triangles, the isosceles one is more practical and gives the better result. Of course, as only two sides are equal, I'm talking about a base which is narrower than the sides. Otherwise you could easily be using speakers as headphones, which can be a bit heavy on the ol' lugholes.

Easy to test for position by playing Pythagoras' fifth symphony ('A La Greque')

 

[wainwj]

When stating the distance of your speakers from the wall behind is this; wall to back corner of speaker, or, wall to front of the drivers?

 

[AndyU]

If there was an award for thread most likely to misinform and mislead this would be it.

Equilateral triangles? FFS!

Why do you say that?

 

[tuga]

If there was an award for thread most likely to misinform and mislead this would be it.

Equilateral triangles? FFS!

Typical audiophile knows more than experts behaviour.

 

[tuga]

To this point, my experiences for the past 5 years in this dedicated listening room, and with at least 6 pairs of speakers (very different designs) can translate to this:
- the rule of 3rds and 5fts is my starting point
- the 1 1/2 distance to the speakers (of the distance between speakers) is my starting point
- the speakers position is easy to feel when the bass is right = tight and clear
- the equilateral triangle set-up don’t work in my room, because makes the listening position in a bad spot acoustically
- every speaker has a different position in the room
- minimum distance to the front wall = 80cm
- minimum distance to the side walls = 63cm
- average distance between speakers = 185 to 215cm (the room’s width is 362cm)
- most speakers work best without toe-in (the manufacturers recommendation) and only the Roksan Darius work better with severe toe-in.
- more distance to the speakers (usually that 1 1/2 ”rule”) work better in therms of consistency, balance, no sibilance and more air between instruments and voices… at the expense of some immediacy, soundstage spread and imaging. I prefer to have a palpable essential part of the massage than a cinemascope picture with less body. My favorite music is jazz and blues from the 1950-70’s period and I don’t have audiophile records or pressings.

In the end, although I like to know “the rules” for me they are only a starting point, because nothing substitutes hard experience. Every month I know more about the subject… and know nothing really

How can the massage be essential but with less body?

'Air' and 'sibilance' have nothing to do with the room. Toe-in will generally increase the former because it is the result of comparatively higher level of top octave ('air' lives between 10KHz and 20KHz) and almost all tweeters will be beaming significantly in that range.

Pratical, hands-on experience helps inform and confirm the theory but cannot be confused with preference, and generally it is.

 

[Alex S]

Thanks to the wonder of Addis pads and their own isopod stand, I can angle the Genelecs however I want with minimal effort.

Coincidentally, they are exactly 83% apart relative to the listening distance.

 

[Mike Reed]

When stating the distance of your speakers from the wall behind is this; wall to back corner of speaker, or, wall to front of the drivers?

Not sure why this question is asked because these things are not that critical. With planars it's easy because of the depth element but with m/coil spkrs, esp. narrow, deep ones, I'd be tempted to say the drivers; i.e. the fronts. After all, if 'free space' is the recommendation, the more the merrier. If 'back to the wall' recommendation, the less the better. Now where did I put my pills.........?

 

[Qwin]

Depends on the width of your room and your listening distance, to close is as bad as to wide, they won't image well.
Your listening position should form a triangle with the speakers and be slightly further than the speakers are apart. Keep them away from side walls and the front wall if possible. In a rectangular room, firing across the short distance usually works better.

 

[Alun Rains]

My Harbeth HL5 Plus speakers are 3 metres apart and toed in by approximately 30 degrees to the listening position that is 3 metres back from the speakers. Sounds great to me, the soundstage opens up nicely and the speakers seem to disappear.

 

[tuga]

When stating the distance of your speakers from the wall behind is this; wall to back corner of speaker, or, wall to front of the drivers?

You should use the acoustic centre of your woofer because Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR) is an issue which affects predominantly the bass and sub-bass frequencies.

From the GIK website:

Constructive interference occurs when the 2 waves happen to be in phase with each other. This yields a reinforcement of that frequency or a peak in response. Destructive interference occurs when the 2 waves are 180 degrees out of phase. This yields a partial cancellation of that frequency (the bounced wave has less amplitude) resulting in a dip or null at that frequency.

This can cause WILD variations in frequency response. However, one can sometimes use this to your advantage. If you play with speaker positioning in relation to the front wall (behind the speakers) and the side wall, you can ‘tune’ the response changes. This can be beneficial when attempting to smooth overall response. See our video Positioning the Listening Spot.

Speaker Boundary Interference Response SBIR GIK Acoustics

SBIR is a term to describe how the proximity of a speaker to a hard boundary (wall/ceiling/floor) will change the response, especially in the low end

gikacoustics.co.uk

Ideally (see table on the bottom left of the image below), if a sub is not used the woofer should not be positioned anywhere between 0.8m and 2.0m from the wall behind it (also called the front wall):

 

[rough edges]

I suspect that you might have achieved an identical soundscape with the JBLs if you'd point them at your shoulders.

The Totems, or most narrow speakers without waveguides seem to disapear comparatively in untreated rooms because they have wide directivity and the sound reflecting from the side walls makes the overall picture fuzzier and speakers harder to spot.

The last thing I did regarding speaker position with my JBLs, was to adjust toe in. I have them pointing just outside my shoulders, which gives me the best integration of the two channels, and best overall tonal balance.
I find it interesting that some of the larger adjustments I have made have had a relatively small effect, and some of the smallest adjustments have made a disproportionately large difference. Ergo, my theory on this, is the closer to the ideal position your speakers are, the larger the difference small adjustments make. I find that to be a great indicator of overall progress when experimenting, and it seems to jive with common sense.

 

[gez]

The only thing that matters with respect to the distance apart between speakers is:

how wide can they be before your perception of image solidity and placement starts to fall apart

Every speaker*, in every room for every person will be different. If the stereo image works for you, then the distance between the speakers is the correct one.

*There's significant variation in dispersion characteristics between different speaker models.

 

[matfff]

If there was an award for thread most likely to misinform and mislead this would be it.

Equilateral triangles? FFS!

I HATE agreeing with David, but he's spot on.

 

[Ellenor]

So many variables from room design, construction materials, floor covering, furniture and positioning of it, speaker choice, cables, amp and sources and the actual music being listened to. My Ovator S400s were sounding great last night because the wife and kids are away and I can move them further into the room. I was wondering why I have the itch to get rid of them and then I remembered moving them to where I did blocks the telly for where I usually watch it from. These are real life issues we have to put up with in a domestic setting.
I’m working on trying some Obelisks at home. Heard some very briefly last week, just need to find a way to get the owner to let me borrow them. Will they work? That’s anyone’s guess....

 

[matfff]

So many variables from room design, construction materials, floor covering, furniture and positioning of it, speaker choice, cables, amp and sources and the actual music being listened to. My Ovator S400s were sounding great last night because the wife and kids are away and I can move them further into the room. I was wondering why I have the itch to get rid of them and then I remembered moving them to where I did blocks the telly for where I usually watch it from. These are real life issues we have to put up with in a domestic setting.
I’m working on trying some Obelisks at home. Heard some very briefly last week, just need to find a way to get the owner to let me borrow them. Will they work? That’s anyone’s guess....

I love all Dick's creations and I really wish I hadn't sold my mk1 Arcs. Moved onto Obs mk2. They need a lot of current. Forget all about watts and believing what manufacturers say, look at current delivery. Forget any Naim amp. Even then, despite what Vasken might tell you, Obs need a lot of space around them, so forget corners and being near walls. I eventually got all that right. 70% of my collection sounded the best it had ever sounded. 30% was unlistenable. Best of luck!

 

[Mike Reed]

Keep them away from side walls and the front wall if possible. In a rectangular room, firing across the short distance usually works better.

Depends upon the speakers and I completely disagree with your second sentence; quite opposite thought here assuming the speakers are not designed for wall position or omni-directional. Firing down a room (depending on dimensions of course) allows greater freedom of spkr positioning and space around them and the listener.

 

[tuga]

Depends upon the speakers and I completely disagree with your second sentence; quite opposite thought here assuming the speakers are not designed for wall position or omni-directional. Firing down a room (depending on dimensions of course) allows greater freedom of spkr positioning and space around them and the listener.

More importantly (if you care for that sort of thing), firing down the longest dimension will give you better/flatter bass response, as per this example by Ethan Winer of RealTraps:

This graph compares the response with the loudspeakers firing down the longer versus shorter dimensions of a room. Image courtesy of Sound On Sound magazine from their MiniTraps Review.

 

[Mike Reed]

More importantly (if you care for that sort of thing), firing down the longest dimension will give you better/flatter bass response,

More important to me would be the soundstaging/imaging aspects as bass is virtually non directional in comparison (hence subs)

 

[tuga]

More important to me would be the soundstaging/imaging aspects as bass is virtually non directional in comparison (hence subs)

You missed my point, illustrated in the graph, which is that the room interference in the bass (peaks and nulls) is massively worse.
If you can imagine a double bass going up the scale, room interference will make some notes inaudible and others boom like mad. To me that, an even tonal balance/response, is more important than soundstage.

Of course those issues can be minimised by using subwoofers, which make main speaker positioning a lot less problematic if and only if those main speakers are high-passed.