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Loudspeakers too far apart?

I have some Kudos speakers and Kudos provide a guide about how best to place them. Pretty much builds on other work but suggests 2m between the speakers, 20-45cm from the back wall, 2-3m to the listening position and no 'toe in' (i.e. speakers pointing straight ahead). I have found that having the speakers closer together at 2m improves the solidity of the sound image. Another less discussed area is ear height relative to the speaker. Mostly I've read that ear height should be approximately that of the tweeter but this is much harder to adjust (depending upon your sofa and its springs!). I've tended to go with the principle that if it sounds good then it is right...
 
My pmc floorstanders have moved about many times over the last 12 yrs.
Currently they are a yard from the back wall, and about the same from the side walls.
The tweeters measure about 6’ apart
My chair is positioned about a yard out from the wall. I can easily alter the position of the chair but tend to have it so my ears are about 6-7’ away from the speakers.
I have them with minimal toe-in at the moment, too much and the soundstage is within the speakers, too much toe-out and the music gets disjointed.

I have come to the conclusion after years of messing about with speaker position that each album could have its own setting, depending on the production, so it is all compromises.
 
whsturm said:
I have some Kudos speakers and Kudos provide a guide about how best to place them. Pretty much builds on other work but suggests 2m between the speakers, 20-45cm from the back wall, 2-3m to the listening position and no 'toe in' (i.e. speakers pointing straight ahead). I have found that having the speakers closer together at 2m improves the solidity of the sound image. Another less discussed area is ear height relative to the speaker. Mostly I've read that ear height should be approximately that of the tweeter but this is much harder to adjust (depending upon your sofa and its springs!). I've tended to go with the principle that if it sounds good then it is right...
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The Kudos advice needs to be taken on the basis that this is advice about placement of their loudspeakers, not general placement advice, though.
 
whsturm said:
Mostly I've read that ear height should be approximately that of the tweeter but this is much harder to adjust (depending upon your sofa and its springs!).
Click to expand...

I purchased the music room chairs based partly on their height in relation to the tweeter height. If my ears are not at the same level as the tweeters, then it sounds off.
When I had a sofa in the music room I had it raised with bricks as it was far too low.
 
I've always found the best results are equal distance between listening position to speaker as from speaker to speaker, i.e, equilateral. And always better sound firing across the width than the length of a room, curiously enough.
 
JTC said:
better sound firing across the width than the length of a room, curiously enough.
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Agreed, except IME listening position at least 1m into the room is even more important. If the width is too short for that, then I would relunctantly fire down the room and use treatments at first wall reflection points.
 
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Big Tabs said:
My pmc floorstanders have moved about many times over the last 12 yrs.
Currently they are a yard from the back wall, and about the same from the side walls.
Click to expand...
My PMCs image best with very little/negligible toe-in and in free space and apart much as you but mine are closer to walls out of necessity. I do listen from a fair way off though (12 to 14 feet).

There is no specific position for speakers for the simple reason that there are too many formats, types, ports and whatever, each performing differently, and domestic room ergonomics are probably unique to the listener. One can make general observations about dissimilar spks; ESLs, folded horns, I.B.s and even ports, and after all that there's the question of individual taste.

Nobody would stick Briks in free space and ESLs back against the wall so a little know-how and nous will usually suffice. I used to listen a lot in my back garden and had extension spkr leads through the French windows and onto the lawn. Possibly the purest sound I've had was from my Rogers LS6As, but one day I struggled out with my Briks; They sounded 'orrible; of course.
 
AndyU said:
I’ve had a quick look at the Sound Fountain recommendations and don’t agree with the first one for sure. He says

“A general rule is that the distance between speakers and listener(s) should be 1 1/2 times the distance between the speakers. ”
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ATC says that you should have an equilateral triangle between speakers and the listening position for their speakers. I will go with the respected manufacturer over someone who has an inflated opinion of the value of their own views. So I would share your doubts, Andy.
 
whsturm said:
I have some Kudos speakers and Kudos provide a guide about how best to place them. Pretty much builds on other work but suggests 2m between the speakers, 20-45cm from the back wall, 2-3m to the listening position and no 'toe in' (i.e. speakers pointing straight ahead). I have found that having the speakers closer together at 2m improves the solidity of the sound image. Another less discussed area is ear height relative to the speaker. Mostly I've read that ear height should be approximately that of the tweeter but this is much harder to adjust (depending upon your sofa and its springs!). I've tended to go with the principle that if it sounds good then it is right...
Click to expand...

You can always tilt the speakers backwards or forwards a little but in fact many speakers are flattest between the tweeter and the woofer.
Stereophile measures the speaker's dispersion in the vertical plane which will tell you the best listening axis.
 
paulbysea said:
ATC says that you should have an equilateral triangle between speakers and the listening position for their speakers. I will go with the respected manufacturer over someone who has an inflated opinion of the value of their own views. So I would share your doubts, Andy.
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I have had several ATC speakers, and have always gone with their recommendations - equilateral triangle, speakers facing you, on axis. Actually I probably prefer with my head just inside the apex of the triangle, for the reasons that Northward - an experienced studio design guy who uses ATC - gives in this thread:


I am inclined to think that people who make speakers or design some of the most highly regarded studios in the world know more about how to listen to them than some random on YouTube.
 
With my JBLs, I started out with an equilateral triangle, but the sound with some recordings was too much left channel and right channel. Over time, I decreased the distance between the speakers by an inch or two at a time. I finally settled on the distance between the speakers being 80% of the distance to my ears. I have the speakers toed in approximately 5 degrees. So, the 83% rule is pretty close to what my ears told me was right for my application.
Since I got to this arrangement purely through experimentation, and due to the fact that I generally don’t obsess too much about these things, it actually took me about a year to get things right. I haven’t had any temptation to change things for over 2 years, so I guess I’m done.
It’s a totally different story with my Totem Arros. Those little guys disappear much easier due to their extremely narrow profile. As a result, there is a lot more flexibility in the ratio we are discussing here.
In the end, I really don’t think there is a solution that works in every situation. But then, that’s what makes all of this so much fun and sometimes even frustrating.
 
Big Tabs said:
My pmc floorstanders have moved about many times over the last 12 yrs.
Currently they are a yard from the back wall, and about the same from the side walls.
The tweeters measure about 6’ apart
My chair is positioned about a yard out from the wall. I can easily alter the position of the chair but tend to have it so my ears are about 6-7’ away from the speakers.
I have them with minimal toe-in at the moment, too much and the soundstage is within the speakers, too much toe-out and the music gets disjointed.

I have come to the conclusion after years of messing about with speaker position that each album could have its own setting, depending on the production, so it is all compromises.
Click to expand...
Blimey, sounds like you don't like your speakers.
 
AndyU said:
I have had several ATC speakers, and have always gone with their recommendations - equilateral triangle, speakers facing you, on axis. Actually I probably prefer with my head just inside the apex of the triangle, for the reasons that Northward - an experienced studio design guy who uses ATC - gives in this thread:


I am inclined to think that people who make speakers or design some of the most highly regarded studios in the world know more about how to listen to them than some random on YouTube.
Click to expand...

This is good advice although the solution for this issue is not as clear cut as it seems, as it involves several factors which are not easily combined:

• personal preference or taste - whether you prefer wider images and soundstage and don't mind a bit of fuziness or would rather have sharper imaging and improved clarity; if frequency response flatness or tonal balance is more or less important to you than imaging and soundstage

• room characteristics - room resonances and reflections will dictate the best positions for speakers and listener, domestic rooms are not treated unlike studio suites

• speaker characteristics - your speakers may not work well close to the side or front walls

• room layout requirements - most of us don't have a dedicated room, speakers need to fit in with the rest of the furniture

In my current room (short wall setup) I am sitting slightly farther from the speakers than they are from each other.

In any case the 2-channel stereo standard is an equilateral triangle, and I would expect most music to be mixed with. In my view that should be the starting point, and then I try to make it work in the room by measuring the responde with speakers and listener in different position until I find a good compromise.

RwVNb3F.gif
 
This website has placement calculators for optimal speaker performance, but the algorithm tends to make the equilateral triangle too small and as you increase the distance between the speakers they're pushed back to less optimal (from a bass response flatness perspective) locations:

Speaker Placement Calculator

noaudiophile.com noaudiophile.com


This other website has an utility which simulates the effects of the room in the bass as you move speakers and listener to different locations:

 
rough edges said:
With my JBLs, I started out with an equilateral triangle, but the sound with some recordings was too much left channel and right channel. Over time, I decreased the distance between the speakers by an inch or two at a time. I finally settled on the distance between the speakers being 80% of the distance to my ears. I have the speakers toed in approximately 5 degrees. So, the 83% rule is pretty close to what my ears told me was right for my application.
Since I got to this arrangement purely through experimentation, and due to the fact that I generally don’t obsess too much about these things, it actually took me about a year to get things right. I haven’t had any temptation to change things for over 2 years, so I guess I’m done.
It’s a totally different story with my Totem Arros. Those little guys disappear much easier due to their extremely narrow profile. As a result, there is a lot more flexibility in the ratio we are discussing here.
In the end, I really don’t think there is a solution that works in every situation. But then, that’s what makes all of this so much fun and sometimes even frustrating.
Click to expand...

I suspect that you might have achieved an identical soundscape with the JBLs if you'd point them at your shoulders.

The Totems, or most narrow speakers without waveguides seem to disapear comparatively in untreated rooms because they have wide directivity and the sound reflecting from the side walls makes the overall picture fuzzier and speakers harder to spot.
 
matfff said:
Blimey, sounds like you don't like your speakers.
Click to expand...

Not at all.

What I have is -
a) A dedicated room for my hi-fi, so I can do what I like.
b) time - that room has been my music room for 30 years, so I have tried different layouts
c) easy to move equipment. The speakers are mounted on felt pads on granite slabs so micro-movements in any direction are very easy. I use a laser to set/record the positions so I can grade them
e) I listen to music for several hours most days, I am disabled and retired so this is my main activity

“Living The Dream…”
 
After using my ATCs firing across the room in an general equilateral set up with various degrees of toe-in I'd concluded they just weren't capable of the 3D tangible centre image a la Tannoy DC that I've a lifetime of familiarity with and this was a source of niggling disappointment spoiling otherwise total satisfaction.
I reluctantly decided to rearrange the room( it's a pita) to try them either side of a bay window firing down the room, in old money they are now 7ft 2 apart tweeter to tweeter and 9 ft to my lug 'oles. They are close to the new front wall and I'm inside an isosceles triangle with speaker axis intersecting about 4ft behind me.
I now have the 'tannoyesque' centre image I've missed without sacrificing any of the superbly extended soundstage and a bottom end to die for. Another bonus( a total surprise tbh) is seats either side of the captain's chair get a thoroughly enjoyable listening experience too. Given the ASL100s are 3 way I suspect it's the increased listening distance that has improved the driver integration/ coherence.
FWIW i think it's important to point out speakers don't radiate sound like laser beams, what comes at you includes a major lobe of sound where the speaker will be at its most ideal in terms of coherence, flattest response etc, setting ear/tweeter height to mm accuracy is nonsensical, you have a listening window that realistically gets physically taller/wider with distance.....
 
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