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Life without the off topic room

I find it a wonderful gathering spot full of surprisingly useful & interesting information from mostly Grumpy Old Men (myself included)...

... & my wider Green & Tory-voting family don’t understand why I seem to be steadily drifting further & further to the dreaded Left...

Occasionally it can get unpleasantly aggressive, but then I just take a break, returning duly refreshed when I feel....

Thanks, Tony :)

(&, yes, @avole - Buddhist monk option an excellent idea)
 
Cheese said:
Yes, but let's mention here again that a little more tolerance for contributors of the moderate right would be very welcome. Some members ought to understand that sometimes you need to mix the cowboys and the indians in order to make things work.
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People of all persuasions are capable of going too far. To put it in very general terms, the right has biases that can cause it to want to preserve what should be thrown out, while the left similarly can be eager to throw out what should be preserved. Innate personality differences, I think.

Both sorts of voices should be of influence, but the left should most often be in charge....
 
DonQuixote99 said:
No way. Guys who kill to get total power, naturally keep on killing to keep it. Giving isn't even in the picture.
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Not really correct, I mean, I'd agree if you'd said Chiang Kai-Shek, the man who refined the scorched earth policy, but much of Mao's later policies were as much to do with the US as they were with China. I'm sure you are well aware of the US vacillation during the Communist PartyKMT conflict, where the US position the diplomats on the ground felt that the CCP were a better bet than the KMT, which was hardly welcomed by non combatants, whereas, compared to the careful policies laid down by Chou-en-lai, the CCP often was. What happened after, especially the famines, the reliance on the unreliable Soviet Union for aid, is often taken to be what pushed the CCP towards the country-wide famines, the poverty, the rush to equal the US and later the Soviet Union in its weapons to maintain their independence rather than solve their own poverty. There's also the historic, angle, too: The Chinese Empire had previously included most of the independent countries, where at various times Vietnam and Cambodia had been vassal states, so many Chinese felt (and still do feel) that they knew and had the interests of most SE Asia at heart. Classic imperial thinking, no more, no less.

I'm not saying the Maoists were squeaky clean, far from it, but there has to be a balance. However, the US refusal to recognise the government and to support their bitter enemy, which support the rest of the Western world tamely followed, certainly had a major influence in their actions. Your original post seems to be a little off point on this.

I'd love to give you references on this, but most of the research is locked away in the archives of an Australian University ,not indexed, or, in my case, long since lost.
 
I would never say the Maoists were necessarily worse than a host of others. Just that they took, and kept, by ruthless means. "Give" in the context went down sort of sideways.
 
As I indicated, that depended on the period. When they were fighting the KMT, they were welcomed in most areas, and soldiers encouraged to give food to the locals. The KMT, as indicated, killed, ravaged and burned, so, certainly when the Maoists finally were in control of the country, it was with popular support. Your description suits the Khmer Rouge more than Mao, but, sadly, things like the CCP re-education programme, which was originally designed so the capitalist Doctors and so on could learn useful skills and appreciate what the peasants went through, ended more as a means to get rid of your enemies, plus set healthcare back tens of years. Yes, there were training programmes also in healthcare, but there was also a shortage of trained professionals to give them, not to mention the plunges in production that caused famine.
 
Avole, of the 45 million or so Chinese who died between 1958-1962 during Mao’s Great Leap Forward, do you happen to know how many died from torture and execution as opposed to just starving to death?
 
What would the Decameron do without the off topic room? Where would he share his word puzzles? I've an inkling he might spend more time on his other online 'hobbies'.
avole said:
Not really correct, I mean, I'd agree if you'd said Chiang Kai-Shek, the man who refined the scorched earth policy, but much of Mao's later policies were as much to do with the US as they were with China. I'm sure you are well aware of the US vacillation during the Communist PartyKMT conflict, where the US position the diplomats on the ground felt that the CCP were a better bet than the KMT, which was hardly welcomed by non combatants, whereas, compared to the careful policies laid down by Chou-en-lai, the CCP often was. What happened after, especially the famines, the reliance on the unreliable Soviet Union for aid, is often taken to be what pushed the CCP towards the country-wide famines, the poverty, the rush to equal the US and later the Soviet Union in its weapons to maintain their independence rather than solve their own poverty. There's also the historic, angle, too: The Chinese Empire had previously included most of the independent countries, where at various times Vietnam and Cambodia had been vassal states, so many Chinese felt (and still do feel) that they knew and had the interests of most SE Asia at heart. Classic imperial thinking, no more, no less.

I'm not saying the Maoists were squeaky clean, far from it, but there has to be a balance. However, the US refusal to recognise the government and to support their bitter enemy, which support the rest of the Western world tamely followed, certainly had a major influence in their actions. Your original post seems to be a little off point on this.

I'd love to give you references on this, but most of the research is locked away in the archives of an Australian University ,not indexed, or, in my case, long since lost.
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Your views interest me, do you have newsletter I can subscribe to?
 
Sorry, no, this was from research, but the information regarding the US stance is freely available. Views? You’ll find Uncle Chiang is up with the worst of them, and there’s a stack of material on US policy.

As to the others - Hook, can you give me the answer, and where you got the information from? I’d be interested to see your sources. For the reason given below you’ll have to await my own response.

I will say nothing about Professor Dikotter’s work. I haven’t read it, nor the responses that came after, nor am in a position to verify the truth or otherwise, as in accessing CCP records. By the way, please do not think that means I will not, but you’ll have to wait a minimum of 2 years for my projected retirement. That, and learning Chinese, plus getting access to the CCP records.

I’ve always thought the state turning on itself, directly killing its own people, really started after the end of the GLF, which broke Mao’s hold on power and which he could not control and but tried to. The whole Red Guard movement was based on manipulation, politics and murder, and that is clearly documented. I still have the Little Red Book I was given by the few remaining Maoists in the late eighties. It makes interesting reading.
 
Interesting reading, Avole, re. the KMT and Cash My Cheque, I'm married to a Taiwanese and saw some of the ancient Chinese treasures brought over from the mainland in '49 (?) whilst visiting a museum in Taipei two decades ago. I remember my wife's mother mentioning that after 50 odd years under fairly benevolent Japanese occupation and the 4 or so year void, the KMT came as a bit of a shock, though she was quite young then.
 
Frankiesays said:
What would the Decameron do without the off topic room? Where would he share his word puzzles? I've an inkling he might spend more time on his other online 'hobbies'.

Your views interest me, do you have newsletter I can subscribe to?
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Frankie, you not going to tell them who you are? You’ve been keeping a low profile in Off Topic of late but I see you’ve had a few relapses coinciding with a spot of Sunday night home drinking. I thought you were going to lay off the stuff?

dr9z45.jpg
 
Hook said:
Avole, of the 45 million or so Chinese who died between 1958-1962 during Mao’s Great Leap Forward, do you happen to know how many died from torture and execution as opposed to just starving to death?
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Where in God's name do you bury 45 million people?
 
Chops54 said:
Where in God's name do you bury 45 million people?
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In China, in this case. Interestingly, I looked up China's population in 1958. 625 million. In normal times that might mean 7 or 8 million deaths a year, roughly. So the death total cited for a five year period might reflect 35 or 40 million normal deaths, and 5-10 million 'Great Leap' victims.

Or the 45 million figure might refer to an estimate of 'excess deaths.' Don't know.
 
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