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Lib Dems - Tories in Disguise

maxflinn said:
But first, everything must be done to stop a Tory/Brexit Party win in a GE, should it come before Brexit, because such a win would mean no referendum, and a hard Brexit.
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Looking from across the Channel, I am truly mystified why the following is not completely obvious:

Step 1 : Corbyn step down, Starmer up
Step 2 : Labour stand for no Brexit / Revoke A50
Step 3 : Labour win GE with clear majority

The “coherent Left” here at pfm have explained ad nauseam why not, but unless the PLP change direction now, they will be to blame for the biggest Opposition fail in history.

It’s as if millions would like to vote Labour, but so few trust Corbyn : even if Corbyn is worthy of trust, the PLP have to understand that perception is almost everything in politics & must respond accordingly.

So I agree with max’s “Everything must be done”, but fear Labour have become completely stuck in being a central part of the problem and not at all the solution.

Edit: sorry, ran a bit off topic to this thread about the LD, who are gaining traction imho entirely on the back of Labour’s failure as described above.
 
After the next GE, reviewing the contributions from the LibDem cheerleaders is going to be side splitting.

The LibDems are the least trustworthy party in the UK. At least with the others it’s clear what you’re going to get, I don’t support the tories or UKIP but I know what they’re about. Can’t say the same for the LibDems, they will duck, dive, lie and do anything to get their noses in the trough. Terrible bunch.
 
Brian said:
You appear to be suggesting freedom of movement caused some problems. Bit of a dilemma there then, given restricting freedom of movement is apparently seen as racist here on pfm.
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No dilemma at all. The "take control of our borders" mantra was weaponised because it taps into the underlying racist mindset that is abundant among gammon leave voters. "Leave the single market", "end freedom of movement", "coming over here taking our jobs/houses/hospital beds" etc. Not my view - I'm all for FOM - but to argue that this wasn't a major factor motivating people to vote leave would be naive.
 
Brian said:
The LibDems are the least trustworthy party in the UK. At least with the others it’s clear what you’re going to get, I don’t support the tories or UKIP but I know what they’re about. Can’t say the same for the LibDems, they will duck, dive, lie and do anything to get their noses in the trough. Terrible bunch.
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You appear to be describing pretty much all of the English parties there.
 
Tony L said:
Attacking and smearing the Lib Dems is far easier than presenting a policy that people will actually vote for! Meanwhile Captain Fenceman remains neutral...
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This is a bit rich coming from someone who has been hurling abuse and cheap insults at Corbyn for the last 3 years, and while doing so, also throwing personal insults at anyone who supports Corbyn’s aims and objectives.
 
jtrade said:
Looking from across the Channel, I am truly mystified why the following is not completely obvious:

Step 1 : Corbyn step down, Starmer up
Step 2 : Labour stand for no Brexit / Revoke A50
Step 3 : Labour win GE with clear majority

The “coherent Left” here at pfm have explained ad nauseam why not, but unless the PLP change direction now, they will be to blame for the biggest Opposition fail in history.

It’s as if millions would like to vote Labour, but so few trust Corbyn : even if Corbyn is worthy of trust, the PLP have to understand that perception is almost everything in politics & must respond accordingly.

So I agree with max’s “Everything must be done”, but fear Labour have become completely stuck in being a central part of the problem and not at all the solution.

Edit: sorry, ran a bit off topic to this thread about the LD, who are gaining traction imho entirely on the back of Labour’s failure as described above.
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I fear what you are overlooking in your analysis is the damage Labour did to themselves, and the country, when the let the Right wing take over the party in the Blair years. Many of their current supporters would leave if they swing to the Right again and the leadership within Labour know this and rightly fear it. Their is really only one serious leader in the UK (Caroline Lucas) but because all the main parties have blocked PR she leads a party which has no real power.
 
Is Jo Swinson the Devil in Disguise?


You fooled me with your kisses
You cheated and you schemed
Heaven knows how you lied to me
You're not the way you seemed
You're the devil in disguise
Oh yes you are
The devil in disguise

(Elvis. 340AD)
 
jtrade said:
Looking from across the Channel, I am truly mystified why the following is not completely obvious:

Step 1 : Corbyn step down, Starmer up
Step 2 : Labour stand for no Brexit / Revoke A50
Step 3 : Labour win GE with clear majority

The “coherent Left” here at pfm have explained ad nauseam why not, but unless the PLP change direction now, they will be to blame for the biggest Opposition fail in history.

It’s as if millions would like to vote Labour, but so few trust Corbyn : even if Corbyn is worthy of trust, the PLP have to understand that perception is almost everything in politics & must respond accordingly.

So I agree with max’s “Everything must be done”, but fear Labour have become completely stuck in being a central part of the problem and not at all the solution.

Edit: sorry, ran a bit off topic to this thread about the LD, who are gaining traction imho entirely on the back of Labour’s failure as described above.
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Under Corbyn Labour finally have policies people need and will vote for.

That’s not failure.
 
Snufkin said:
I fear what you are overlooking in your analysis is the damage Labour did to themselves, and the country, when the let the Right wing take over the party in the Blair years. Many of their current supporters would leave if they swing to the Right again and the leadership within Labour know this and rightly fear it. Their is really only one serious leader in the UK (Caroline Lucas) but because all the main parties have blocked PR she leads a party which has no real power.
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Do you consider Starmer "Right" (serious q) ?
 
jtrade said:
Do you consider Starmer "Right" (serious q) ?
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No but there is a sensitivity in the party about any hint of a movement in that direction. You can't underestimate how many people resented what Blairites did to the Labour Party; Corbyn gained traction because he is seriously Left wing.
 
maxflinn said:
Under Corbyn Labour finally have policies people need and will vote for.

That’s not failure.
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LOLZ. Do you honestly think Labour have a hope in hell of a parliamentary majority? Even being the largest party is looking hugely unlikely now. They will almost certainly lose seats compared to their current position.

This is failure by any credible definition. It takes some truly remarkable leadership qualities to actually move backwards against such an ugly incompetent bumbling privileged right-wing nationalist open goal. Corbyn is that man!
 
Tony L said:
LOLZ. Do you honestly think Labour have a hope in hell of a parliamentary majority? Even being the largest party is looking hugely unlikely now. They will almost certainly lose seats compared to their current position.

This is failure by any credible definition. It takes some truly remarkable leadership qualities to actually move backwards against such an ugly incompetent bumbling privileged right-wing nationalist open goal. Corbyn is that man!
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An ugly incompetent bumbling privileged right wing nationalist govt that Swinson’s voting record harmonises with quite nicely, and the most right wing members of which Swinson has now happily accepted into the LD’s.

The LD’s don’t even try to oppose these people, instead they welcome them with open arms.
 
A party that happily harboured UKIPs like Kate Hoey, John Mann, Gisela Stuart etc is in absolutely no place to lecture others!
 
ks.234 said:
You’re mistaken. Honey, Mann, Stuart were not UKIPers welcomed into Labour by Corbyn.
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I accept they and their ilk were there supporting English nationalism from the off, long before Corbyn had any power, but he still selected a fence to sit on for three years rather than challenge their repugnant views and form coherent pro-EU/anti-nationalist policies to campaign on. As such Labour is where it is, crushed in recent elections, floundering in the polls and apparently terrified of both the Lib Dems and the Brexit “Party”!

PS Hoey should have had the whip immediately withdrawn for sharing far-right platforms with Farage and his disaster capitalist backers. She should have been hoofed out way back during the referendum campaign. Surely you can see that?!
 
jtrade said:
It’s as if millions would like to vote Labour, but so few trust Corbyn : even if Corbyn is worthy of trust, the PLP have to understand that perception is almost everything in politics & must respond accordingly.
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Don't want to add to the nauseam but 1) perception *isn't* everything 2) perception would be exactly the same with any left-ish leader and 3) perception is very mutable right now.

Re Starmer he's grand at what he does but in a way he's from another age, far more so than Corbyn: an empty vessel in terms of values and ideas, limited political sense, but good looking, competent, someone that professional types can identify with. He'd have been good in a TV era but that's not where we are: we need someone with a good understanding of the country who can push radical policies through while negotiating some very choppy political waters. Whatever his faults Corbyn can do that. In a few years the likes of Laura Pidcock will be ready.
 
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