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Lib Dems - Tories in Disguise

Indeed. All the parties appear to have abandoned as irrelevant any notions of technical competence in the day-to-day management of the country. Perhaps they are correct in that it simply doesn't sell to the voters but it is getting more and more urgent for the interests of the majority that some technical competence is brought to bear to adjust how wealth is currently flowing, to slow and reverse the destruction of our social infrastructure and to start removing some wealth from the excessively wealthy in a manner they are prepared to accept. Until one of the political parties starts doing this our current downwards trajectory for the majority is going to continue with more and more expressions of social instability like the self harm of brexit, growing faith in extremism on the left and right, etc...
What do you think about Labour's industrial strategy, and their ideas about reforming banking, introducing democracy into corporations, setting up a national care service and so on?
 
What do you think about Labour's industrial strategy, and their ideas about reforming banking, introducing democracy into corporations, setting up a national care service and so on?
They are some of the things that need doing if part of a coherent integrated package and lead by a rational group that both capital and labour can trust. The faith based faction controlling the labour party are so far from this that currently stated labour party policy is all but irrelevant. If the faction were ever to reach power the expectation by many is that they would then implement a range of policies that form part of their faith and would try to dig in in the way they have always done. Trust matters and the faction controlling the labour are probably not trusted by most of the people voting labour never mind those voting for other parties.

Most of the required structural reforms apply equally to left, centre and right because they are intended to (re-)stabilise a system that is becoming unstable. An example of this is that some of the most vocal about the problem are some of the obscenely rich. They are not doing this for altruistic reasons but because they fear the pitchforks that they see coming for them.
 
Quite simply: we would not be in this mess now if they hadn't enabled it. And I don't just mean 'Brexit'.
Dubious. Blair's relaxation in 2004 of freedom of movement is probably a substantial contributor, amongst other things.

You appear to be suggesting freedom of movement caused some problems. Bit of a dilemma there then, given restricting freedom of movement is apparently seen as racist here on pfm.
 
Dubious. Blair's relaxation in 2004 of freedom of movement is probably a substantial contributor, amongst other things.

I'd not argue with that as such. And I'd agree that T Blair was pretty much what the LDs are now. However if we hadn't been dragged so far down the neoliberal, privatisation, marketisation, austerity route his specific decision to 'open up' freedom of movement before all other EU countries almost certainly would matter far less that it came to.

Quite simply, if so many working class people hadn't been made poorer and left to feel abandoned, left behind, and regarded as worthless, they wouldn't have become such easy meat for the right.

FWIW So far as I am concerned: I didn't leave the LP when Blair became leader. It left me.
 
The Tories played their part when Cameron announced a Brexit referendum to try to placate nationalists within his own party and stop Ukip gaining Tory seats.

The electorate (those who voted) then enabled it by voting for it.

I don't see how Labour has enabled it. Can you explain?

The referendum bill was supported by all parties in the House apart from the SNP. It had overwhelming support at the second reading, including from >200 Labour MPs. The 3rd reading vote had a much smaller turnout but it was obvious by then it was going through.

I realise Labour didn't have the numbers to prevent it, but that doesn't mean they were obliged to vote in favour.
 
Good interview with Caroline Lucas here (trigger warning: Owen Jones is the interviewer):

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...brexit-position-is-massively-dangerous-for-uk

Around the 2:40 mark, she describes Swinson's position as "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous". This is from a woman who has shared a platform with Lib-Dem MPs as part of the People's Vote campaign.

Maybe Lucas has decided to side with the forces of English nationalism and far-right violence? After all, she tends not to dismiss anyone who voted Leave as subhuman scum so, from the ultra-Remain perspective, she's always been slightly suspect.

Or maybe she's angry that Swinson's fractured the nascent anti-Conservative alliance with her latest stunt, making an outright Conservative majority and a hard Brext more likely.
 
The referendum bill was supported by all parties in the House apart from the SNP. It had overwhelming support at the second reading, including from >200 Labour MPs. The 3rd reading vote had a much smaller turnout but it was obvious by then it was going through.

I realise Labour didn't have the numbers to prevent it, but that doesn't mean they were obliged to vote in favour.
Pretty sure Corbyn voted against.
 
Zarniwoop is right. He mostly ducked it but he voted for the Ref in 2011, when the ball was set rolling. Thereafter, he abstained.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/divisions?policy=1027
And, as a point of information, the ten current Lib-Dems who were MPs at the time all voted *for* a referendum:

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1174099554846826498

Note that this was after the 2015 GE, so they were not in coalition at the time.
 
I don't think I'd blame any MP (except Corbyn I just hate him) for voting in favour of a referendum back then.

5 years ago I probably would have supported a referendum thinking that it is the democratic thing to do and wouldn't be fought using lies, illegally collected data and vast sums of hidden money by a bunch of cvnts.
 
I'm very disappointed with the LD position. If we win, revoke - fine. If we go into coalition we will negotiate - shit.

It should be under every and all circumstances - revoke if you want our help. Also, you will pass a proper PR bill that we will dictate the white paper for, no referendum - you whip all your members to do it or no support. First two items would have to be revoke and PR. Then we can talk about your social reform policies which we're probably going to agree with anyway.

Similarly the SNP can have revoke and and a referendum north of the border at a time of their choosing.

The Greens can have revoke and their energy policy, set out just like a white paper just copy this.

Then when Labour are a few seats short. Maybe ten. Maybe a hundred. They can see what combination of the three centre parties gets them enough seats.

It also has the elegance of people actually setting out what they want to do, not what they think they need to say to get people to vote for them so they can do something else. And everyone is clear on where they stand on Brexit. I believe the LD, SNP and Greens have all said revoke?
 
They are some of the things that need doing if part of a coherent integrated package and lead by a rational group that both capital and labour can trust. The faith based faction controlling the labour party are so far from this that currently stated labour party policy is all but irrelevant.[snip]
What's irrational about the current leadership? They're at least partly responsible for the policies after all. And I may have asked this before: where does faith come into it? The policies or...what?
 
I'm very disappointed with the LD position. If we win, revoke - fine. If we go into coalition we will negotiate - shit.

It should be under every and all circumstances - revoke if you want our help. Also, you will pass a proper PR bill that we will dictate the white paper for, no referendum - you whip all your members to do it or no support. First two items would have to be revoke and PR. Then we can talk about your social reform policies which we're probably going to agree with anyway.

Similarly the SNP can have revoke and and a referendum north of the border at a time of their choosing.

The Greens can have revoke and their energy policy, set out just like a white paper just copy this.

Then when Labour are a few seats short. Maybe ten. Maybe a hundred. They can see what combination of the three centre parties gets them enough votes.

It also has the elegance of people actually setting out what they want to do, not what they think they need to say to get people to vote for them so they can do something else. And everyone is clear on where they stand on Brexit. I believe the LD, SNP and Greens have all said revoke?
SNP and Greens have completely repudiated the LDs' position. Lib Dems are way out on a limb, and if I had more faith in their acumen or integrity I'd say they were deliberately falling on their sword for the good of the remain alliance.
 
I'm very disappointed with the LD position. If we win, revoke - fine. If we go into coalition we will negotiate - shit.

It should be under every and all circumstances - revoke if you want our help. Also, you will pass a proper PR bill that we will dictate the white paper for, no referendum - you whip all your members to do it or no support. First two items would have to be revoke and PR. Then we can talk about your social reform policies which we're probably going to agree with anyway.

Similarly the SNP can have revoke and and a referendum north of the border at a time of their choosing.

The Greens can have revoke and their energy policy, set out just like a white paper just copy this.

Then when Labour are a few seats short. Maybe ten. Maybe a hundred. They can see what combination of the three centre parties gets them enough seats.

It also has the elegance of people actually setting out what they want to do, not what they think they need to say to get people to vote for them so they can do something else. And everyone is clear on where they stand on Brexit. I believe the LD, SNP and Greens have all said revoke?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...brexit-position-is-massively-dangerous-for-uk

Caroline Lucas says the Lib-Dem position is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous". I'd take that as a NO, if I were Swinson.
 
Caroline Lucas says the Lib-Dem position is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous". I'd take that as a NO, if I were Swinson.

OK, so I can't vote green then as they seem to be as confused about Europe as Labour.

Maybe I should move so I can vote SNP? Are they still pro-revoke?
 


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