Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VI

[droodzilla]

Labour for many years been doing the opposite of that which they should as far as propagating a socialist ideology.

Capitalism is evil and the worst ideology in existence. There should be no difficulty in making it unpopular. Some commentators recently have been saying that capitalism is becoming more and more unpopular in the last few years anyway and that covid has helped in this...

Selling Socialism to the poor and the under dog should be as easy as selling half price booze to alcoholics!

I've long thought that Labour are missing many tricks in as much as not demonising capitalism, not shoving socialism down peoples necks, not demonising the super wealthy, not making a huge effort to get out the Labour vote in areas where most people are both on benefits and usually don't involve themselves in politics and don't vote. Yes the vast sink estates are where there are the most unemployed, and where most of the ex convicts, the alcoholics etc live, and it's just such people who almost never vote and have most to gain from a Labour gov.
Really target them and get them out voting! let the tories try and use it against Labour, make hay from it. tory monetarist greedy dog eat dog policies have left these people reduced to this generationally. Push the point that tory policies make the rich richer whilst crushing people like them.

Did anyone see "The decade the wealthy won" ? There was a grinning from ear to ear george osborne saying that yes of course when quantitive easing happened all that money went to those who already had assets and wealth and they got even more stinking rich overnight, as if it was a given, natural and right and only a complete cretin would have thought otherwise or had a problem with this! Show the poor what ****s such types really are! make them the enemy!

They should be pushing the "them and us" thing and demonising the wealthy owner of two homes with 4 cars etc, making it clear that they are the enemy of such people and that such types will suffer under Labour in order that those at the bottom end of the food chain can have a better life... much as the scum party demonises the so called "benefits scrounger" etc etc. Advertise the fact "He earns £120K a year and makes another £60K from shares whilst he sits on his arse! He only pays 3 times more council tax than you do on £10K a year! tories want to keep him happy and you ground down and exploited!" etc etc

Yes all this will make them vastly more unpopular with the accountant from Surbiton who drives a Merc... but they were very unlikely to get that vote anyway and would have needed to do very silly things like erm.... trying to be a tory lite... in order to do so

Sell socialism to society Labour!!

Thanks for reminding me about that documentary. I meant to watch it a while ago but it slipped my mind. If it's done well, it should be essential viewing. It amazes me that there have been so few documentaries about the 2008 financial crash and its aftermath. It was one of the defining moments of our age and we continue to live in its shadow. It's impossible to make sense of recent political events without taking into account how the crisis was handled (basically, who paid for it, and who didn't).

 

[Woodface]

Voter apathy & fatalism is perhaps more evident among the less well off so they just don’t engage with the process. The Tories are better at targeting the committed voter.

 

[Tony L]

Voter apathy & fatalism is perhaps more evident among the less well off so they just don’t engage with the process.

Maybe they realise there is nothing on the ballot paper that represents change. The problem with our system is it is mainly carved up to rich/poor areas and these result in safe seats for job for life establishment politicians from Labour and Conservative. The number of seats that actually define a political outcome are comparatively small and we are locked into two different types of fail. At 58 years of age the penny is finally starting to drop that the folk who can’t be arsed voting are the smart ones. The likely grasp it is an utter charade.

 

[russel]

Maybe they realise there is nothing on the ballot paper that represents change. The problem with our system is it is mainly carved up to rich/poor areas and these result in safe seats for job for life establishment politicians from Labour and Conservative. The number of seats that actually define a political outcome are comparatively small and we are locked into two different types of fail. At 58 years of age the penny is finally starting to drop that the folk who can’t be arsed voting are the smart ones. The likely grasp it is an utter charade.

It’s much better to spoil your ballot paper than not vote, if the number of spoilt ballots was of the same order or greater than the winner of an election the parties would start to get worried as they wouldn’t really have a mandate. Just treat it as “none of the above”.

 

[Heckyman]

Most big political changes arise through mass protest rather than through the ballot box. No coincidence that a key piece of government legislation is aimed at limiting protest, and very little has been made of it in the media.

 

[Seanm]

It’s much better to spoil your ballot paper than not vote, if the number of spoilt ballots was of the same order or greater than the winner of an election the parties would start to get worried as they wouldn’t really have a mandate. Just treat it as “none of the above”.

I really think you’re overestimating them. The current lot on both sides are bubbleheads who only care about being in charge: questions of legitimacy do not occur to them and anything that contradicts their sense of themselves as political geniuses is very easily explained away. Item: Labour have lost a third of their members and are almost bankrupt, and the leadership are taking this as proof of their victory over racism.

 

[laughingboy]

Most big political changes arise through mass protest rather than through the ballot box.

Perhaps this used to be true: the Women's Suffrage movement is an example. But when it comes to post-war political change in the UK, apart from the poll tax riots (where it is arguable that adverse public opinion rather than the riots led to the change), I can't think of a single successful mass protest.

Aldermaston/CND marches (1950s-80s) - unsuccessful
Countryside Alliance (2002)- unsuccessful.
Iraq War protest (2003)- unsuccessful.
Tuition fee protests (2010) - unsuccesful
Anti-austerity protests (2011 and others to 2019) - unsuccessful
Occupy London (2011-12) - unsuccessful
Tuition fee protest (2015) - unsuccesful
Anti-Brexit protest (2017) - unsuccessful
People's Vote March For the Future (Oct 2018) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Put It to the People (Mar 2019) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Let Us Be Heard (Oct 2019) - unsuccessful
George Floyd protests (2020) - unsuccessful

Depressing, isn't it?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Maybe it's time for a different sort of popular protest. There must be things we can do in this digital era to make it difficult for the vested interests and powers to ignore.

One thing I'd like to see, for starters, is some form of 'stop funding hate' campaign for donors to political parties. Especially Tories, but it'd have to apply equally to all registered political parties. Full transparency on who the donor is, and what their commercial interest are. Then people can boycott those businesses, their suppliers and other businesses that work with them, should they choose.

 

[Tony L]

I can't think of a single successful mass protest.

I think you may be looking for too immediate effects. To my mind protest is more gradual than that, change never happens after a single march or event. It is almost always ongoing pressure, e.g. I’d never classify MLK, Malcolm X, Black Panthers, Black Lives Matter etc as unsuccessful, they all clearly shifted dialogue, presented real resistance and moved huge swathes of public opinion even if the problems still exist to this day. They are the best of us. Civil rights is always an ongoing thing. A constant resistance against the forces of the political right/fascism. For every clear win (e.g. Suffragettes, South Africa etc) there are countless other examples of gradual pushback and resistance.

The only real fail to my mind in recent years was Brexit. We got absolutely pwnd there as there was no coherent political opposition. It will take a very long time to reclaim that disaster from the political right and attempt to correct it, but it will happen as it was so clearly the wrong decision and is so clearly already an economic and social failure. We must use that failure to keep fighting for a genuinely inclusive and more intelligent future.

 

[Spraggons Den]

A lot on the list were successful in raising public awareness and I think the 2020 George Floyd protests had some decent outcomes such as Chavin being sent to prison.

Lorries and lots of them seems an effective means of protest in the modern era.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I guess you have to ask yourself what the protest is aiming to achieve. And then what will be the most effective way to realise that objective. Supergluing yourself to motorways has been highly effective at raising the profile of a group and its concerns, but less so at garnering widespread public support, for example.

My thinking is that protest/dissent needs to raise awareness and garner mass support, in order to make the protested-against take notice. But it also ideally will carry an implicit message that the status quo will not remain in the interests of those parties if change isn't forthcoming. That's what didn't happen with the Brexit marches. They were hugely successful in gaining visibility and attention, and as a bit of a yardstick for a sizeable chunk of public sentiment, but there was nothing that actually gave pause to anybody hell bent on Brexit.

 

[sean99]

Perhaps this used to be true: the Women's Suffrage movement is an example. But when it comes to post-war political change in the UK, apart from the poll tax riots (where it is arguable that adverse public opinion rather than the riots led to the change), I can't think of a single successful mass protest.

Aldermaston/CND marches (1950s-80s) - unsuccessful
Countryside Alliance (2002)- unsuccessful.
Iraq War protest (2003)- unsuccessful.
Tuition fee protests (2010) - unsuccesful
Anti-austerity protests (2011 and others to 2019) - unsuccessful
Occupy London (2011-12) - unsuccessful
Tuition fee protest (2015) - unsuccesful
Anti-Brexit protest (2017) - unsuccessful
People's Vote March For the Future (Oct 2018) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Put It to the People (Mar 2019) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Let Us Be Heard (Oct 2019) - unsuccessful
George Floyd protests (2020) - unsuccessful

Depressing, isn't it?

I agree - with the exception of the BLM protests, which as Tony said, may have started a longer process. It is depressing.

 

[Dave H.]

Perhaps this used to be true: the Women's Suffrage movement is an example. But when it comes to post-war political change in the UK, apart from the poll tax riots (where it is arguable that adverse public opinion rather than the riots led to the change), I can't think of a single successful mass protest.

Aldermaston/CND marches (1950s-80s) - unsuccessful
Countryside Alliance (2002)- unsuccessful.
Iraq War protest (2003)- unsuccessful.
Tuition fee protests (2010) - unsuccesful
Anti-austerity protests (2011 and others to 2019) - unsuccessful
Occupy London (2011-12) - unsuccessful
Tuition fee protest (2015) - unsuccesful
Anti-Brexit protest (2017) - unsuccessful
People's Vote March For the Future (Oct 2018) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Put It to the People (Mar 2019) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Let Us Be Heard (Oct 2019) - unsuccessful
George Floyd protests (2020) - unsuccessful

Depressing, isn't it?

Don't worry, we won't have to worry about all that soon anyway.

Government drone being interviewed on the radio earlier categorising even peaceful protest as use of force (yes, really, and yes, seriously). Direction of travel clearly established.

Airstrip number 2 intended destination confirmed.

 

[Heckyman]

Perhaps this used to be true: the Women's Suffrage movement is an example. But when it comes to post-war political change in the UK, apart from the poll tax riots (where it is arguable that adverse public opinion rather than the riots led to the change), I can't think of a single successful mass protest.

Aldermaston/CND marches (1950s-80s) - unsuccessful
Countryside Alliance (2002)- unsuccessful.
Iraq War protest (2003)- unsuccessful.
Tuition fee protests (2010) - unsuccesful
Anti-austerity protests (2011 and others to 2019) - unsuccessful
Occupy London (2011-12) - unsuccessful
Tuition fee protest (2015) - unsuccesful
Anti-Brexit protest (2017) - unsuccessful
People's Vote March For the Future (Oct 2018) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Put It to the People (Mar 2019) - unsuccessful
People's Vote Let Us Be Heard (Oct 2019) - unsuccessful
George Floyd protests (2020) - unsuccessful

Depressing, isn't it?

Perhaps we need to take a leaf from the French. At least scrap the line "long to reign over us" in the national anthem.

 

[laughingboy]

I think you may be looking for too immediate effects. To my mind protest is more gradual than that, change never happens after a single march or event. It is almost always ongoing pressure, e.g. I’d never classify MLK, Malcolm X, Black Panthers, Black Lives Matter etc as unsuccessful, they all clearly shifted dialogue, presented real resistance and moved huge swathes of public opinion even if the problems still exist to this day. They are the best of us. Civil rights is always an ongoing thing. A constant resistance against the forces of the political right/fascism. For every clear win (e.g. Suffragettes, South Africa etc) there are countless other examples of gradual pushback and resistance.

On reflection, I agree. The BLM protests probably fed into the emboldening of the England football team, who achieved two genuine popular pushbacks against racism.

First win: the silencing of the boos for the England men's football team taking the knee in summer 2021. This marked the end of the attempts to smear the entire George Floyd-inspired movement by painting the BLM organisation as Marxist.

Second win: the popular condemnation of social media reaction to the fact that the players who missed penalties for England in the European Championship final were black. Massive hearts-and-minds victory.

 

[vince rocker]

@laughingboy I think the 2003 mass protests against the Iraq war did achieve something, though not the immediate aim. It has become impossible for a Government to propose any similar adventures since then.

 

[laughingboy]

@laughingboy I think the 2003 mass protests against the Iraq war did achieve something, though not the immediate aim. It has become impossible for a Government to propose any similar adventures since then.

Syria 2012 was stopped by Miliband. If Cameron had a majority, it would have happened, so you're not 100% right. I'll grant that it's possible that Miliband only resisted because of those protests, though.

 

[Tony L]

On reflection, I agree. The BLM protests probably fed into the emboldening of the England football team, who achieved two genuine popular pushbacks against racism.

Whilst it isn’t my subject the push in sport looks to have been considerable; huge campaigning by Lewis Hamilton and others in F1, the exposure and widespread condemnation of systemic racism in cricket etc etc. It has spread out right across the world and hopefully there is no way back. The US football and baseball teams who’s players were at the very forefront have learned that if they attempt to suppress it or pander to far-right spectators they have nothing to sell. This is as it should be.

The whole #BLM thing has been one of the most uplifting and life-affirming things of this century to my mind. A huge conceptual change highlighting that real journalism is now in the power of everyone with a smartphone in their pocket and that real injustice can spread around the globe like a fireball thanks to global social media that exists beyond the reach of authoritarian states. It is the very definition of speaking truth to power. It has also had a huge spill-over into art, music and culture and has reinvigorated jazz, R&B and many other forms. It is the spiritual successor to the 1960s civil rights movement and carries with it huge power. It honours that legacy. It has even changed how many of us view old statues of Tory slavers in our towns and cities.

 

[Darmok]

Maybe it's time for a different sort of popular protest

Lorries and lots of them seems an effective means of protest in the modern era.

Indeed, during my anger after being screwed over by a powerful force, I became a creative thinker to retaliate.

Thinking about these...

 

[Tony L]

Interesting feature on C4 News now regarding the anti-vaxx nutjobs and conspiracy theorists. Unsurprisingly Corbyn’s brother was right at the heart of it. Utter bellends the lot of them.