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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VI

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I just vote for the least worst option. Not had any real enthusiasm since the early Blair years. Don’t see the point in not voting or wasting it on minor interest parties.

A degree of competency & stability is all I ask; I think Labour are currently best equipped to deliver this.
 
I just vote for the least worst option. Not had any real enthusiasm since the early Blair years. Don’t see the point in not voting or wasting it on minor interest parties.

A degree of competency & stability is all I ask; I think Labour are currently best equipped to deliver this.
The reason we have such poor government is because we have such low expectations
 
Liam Fox on R4 talked about Tory values (low tax) and the dangers of socialism.

The problem that Labour has, the one that underpins it’s failure to provide proper opposition to the Tories, is that is has no philosophical opposition to Tory ideology.

Labour has lost it’s way philosophically. Not only does it have no response to attacks on it’s own core philosophy, but it has no stance from which to attack the Tories core philosophy.

Labour have been embarrassed about it’s own core philosophy since Blair and failed to replace it with anything coherent beyond a strategy to be slightly less ugly than the Tories, a strategy that is dependant on the Tories voluntarily exposing their own ugliness to excess.

Liam Fox can clearly set out the philosophical danger of socialism by linking a Labour government with accusations of high taxation on ordinary people. (Labour doesn’t have a coherent alternative to NI tax rises).

Labour doesn’t have a coherent attack line on central Tory philosophy because Labour does not oppose that philosophy. The closest Labour has come to attack core Tory values is to call them ‘scum’, which was rather narrow, incoherent and totally backfired

It’s not as if the Tories don’t have core philosophical values that are deeply flawed. Tory philosophical values are based on a massive lie about taxation, a belief that making millions of people unemployed and creating a low wage economy for many is both “natural and necessary”, and only ever tackle inflation by making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Tory core values are based on misrepresentation, are deeply immoral, and are regressive and inflationary. But Labour has manoeuvred itself into a position whereby it can’t attack them. At the same time it has manoeuvred itself into a position where it can’t defend it’s own core values.

Labour is dying from self inflicted wounds
 
Tory core values are based on misrepresentation, are deeply immoral, and are regressive and inflationary.

Disgraced Former Defence Secretary Liam Fox, to give him his full title, is arguably the poster for that. A highly duplicitous till-dipper IMHO.

PS As his Wikipedia entry highlights his behaviour was so disreputable Google would autocomplete ‘disgraced’ with ‘disgraced former defence secretary’!
 
Liam Fox on R4 talked about Tory values (low tax) and the dangers of socialism.

The problem that Labour has, the one that underpins it’s failure to provide proper opposition to the Tories, is that is has no philosophical opposition to Tory ideology.

Labour has lost it’s way philosophically. Not only does it have no response to attacks on it’s own core philosophy, but it has no stance from which to attack the Tories core philosophy.

Labour have been embarrassed about it’s own core philosophy since Blair and failed to replace it with anything coherent beyond a strategy to be slightly less ugly than the Tories, a strategy that is dependant on the Tories voluntarily exposing their own ugliness to excess.

Liam Fox can clearly set out the philosophical danger of socialism by linking a Labour government with accusations of high taxation on ordinary people. (Labour doesn’t have a coherent alternative to NI tax rises).

Labour doesn’t have a coherent attack line on central Tory philosophy because Labour does not oppose that philosophy. The closest Labour has come to attack core Tory values is to call them ‘scum’, which was rather narrow, incoherent and totally backfired

It’s not as if the Tories don’t have core philosophical values that are deeply flawed. Tory philosophical values are based on a massive lie about taxation, a belief that making millions of people unemployed and creating a low wage economy for many is both “natural and necessary”, and only ever tackle inflation by making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Tory core values are based on misrepresentation, are deeply immoral, and are regressive and inflationary. But Labour has manoeuvred itself into a position whereby it can’t attack them. At the same time it has manoeuvred itself into a position where it can’t defend it’s own core values.

Labour is dying from self inflicted wounds

I have a slightly different take. I think Labour is dying due to the inability of the various internal factions to work together constructively. More effort appears to be expended on internal fights, than on fighting the Tories.

I completely agree, though, that the current iteration of Tories should be utterly repugnant to any sane person, so you would think Labour would be able to stick one in the back of the open goal. It's also very unsettling to think that such a significant percentage of the electorate would vote for the current Tories. One can only hope the majority are misinformed and don't truly believe that the Tories represent the best interests of the country.
 
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I have a slightly different take. I think Labour is dying due to the inability of the various internal factions to work together constructively. More effort appears to be expended on internal fights, than on fighting the Tories.

We're seeing the same thing among the Tories just now. Both parties are broad and incompatible coalitions forced together by the electoral system.
 
I have a slightly different take. I think Labour is dying due to the inability of the various internal factions to work together constructively. More effort appears to be expended on internal fights, than on fighting the Tories.

I completely agree, though, that the current iteration of Tories should be utterly repugnant to any sane person, so you would think Labour would be able to stick one in the back of the open goal. It's also very unsettling to think that such a significant percentage of the electorate would vote for the current Tories. One can only hope the majority are misinformed and don't truly believe that the Tories represent the best interests of the country.
I would argue that the reason why the factions in Labour can’t work together is that they are philosophically opposed.

Socialism has very successfully been demonised by the right wing outside Labour and more than one or two own goals. The Blairites have adopted Tory philosophy on monetary policy (started by Callaghan) and turned their back on, then actively opposed Socialism.

As such the only direction that Labour can possibly move, is towards the right and because it has no ideological problem with the Tories, it relies for success on Tory moral corruption manifesting itself in extreme form. Note that it isn’t the chronic mismanagement of the economy or the corruption of £b bungs to mates of Matt Hancock that have cause the problem for the Tories, nor any opposition to that economic corruption from Labour, but Johnson’s lockdown lies.
 
I have a slightly different take. I think Labour is dying due to the inability of the various internal factions to work together constructively. More effort appears to be expended on internal fights, than on fighting the Tories.

I completely agree, though, that the current iteration of Tories should be utterly repugnant to any sane person, so you would think Labour would be able to stick one in the back of the open goal. It's also very unsettling to think that such a significant percentage of the electorate would vote for the current Tories. One can only hope the majority are misinformed and don't truly believe that the Tories represent the best interests of the country.
This is true but it grossly underestimates the extent to which the Labour right were prepared to burn everything to the ground to regain control of the party.

Historically, the left of the party has accepted the "broad church" argument and tried to work with the leadership, regardless of political differences. This is from a while back, but it's fascinating how mild Jeremy Corbyn's and Ken Livingstone's reaction is to the 1992 election defeat:


Similarly, many on the left of the party stuck with it through the Blair years (though there was an exodus of left-wing members after the Iraq War).

Most recently, many Corbyn supporters voted for Starmer in the leadership election, as he promised to deliver (diluted) Corbynism + competence. The current strife within the party is 100% down to Starmer's decision to renege on that deal and pursue a petty factional vendetta against the left.

I was willing to give Starmer the benefit of the doubt when he became leader. Now, I think he is a liar, a moral coward and an opportunist who will say and do anything to get power. Hmmm... that sounds familiar.
 
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Perfectly sums up the mood within the Labour ranks. I don’t think Starmer is dishonest or a coward but I am just a member of the electorate that seeks a degree of competency. I couldn’t stand Corbyn but I still voted for him but according to the faithful on here I’m a Tory.

No wonder we keep getting Tory governments.
 
Britain Trump clearly needs his QAnon ‘storm the capital moment’. He created a mob with his far-right Brexit project, now he can weaponise it.
 
Liam Fox on R4 talked about Tory values (low tax) and the dangers of socialism.

The problem that Labour has, the one that underpins it’s failure to provide proper opposition to the Tories, is that is has no philosophical opposition to Tory ideology.

Labour has lost it’s way philosophically. Not only does it have no response to attacks on it’s own core philosophy, but it has no stance from which to attack the Tories core philosophy.

Labour have been embarrassed about it’s own core philosophy since Blair and failed to replace it with anything coherent beyond a strategy to be slightly less ugly than the Tories, a strategy that is dependant on the Tories voluntarily exposing their own ugliness to excess.

Liam Fox can clearly set out the philosophical danger of socialism by linking a Labour government with accusations of high taxation on ordinary people. (Labour doesn’t have a coherent alternative to NI tax rises).

Labour doesn’t have a coherent attack line on central Tory philosophy because Labour does not oppose that philosophy. The closest Labour has come to attack core Tory values is to call them ‘scum’, which was rather narrow, incoherent and totally backfired

It’s not as if the Tories don’t have core philosophical values that are deeply flawed. Tory philosophical values are based on a massive lie about taxation, a belief that making millions of people unemployed and creating a low wage economy for many is both “natural and necessary”, and only ever tackle inflation by making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Tory core values are based on misrepresentation, are deeply immoral, and are regressive and inflationary. But Labour has manoeuvred itself into a position whereby it can’t attack them. At the same time it has manoeuvred itself into a position where it can’t defend it’s own core values.

Labour is dying from self inflicted wounds

Labour for many years been doing the opposite of that which they should as far as propagating a socialist ideology.

Capitalism is evil and the worst ideology in existence. There should be no difficulty in making it unpopular. Some commentators recently have been saying that capitalism is becoming more and more unpopular in the last few years anyway and that covid has helped in this...

Selling Socialism to the poor and the under dog should be as easy as selling half price booze to alcoholics!

I've long thought that Labour are missing many tricks in as much as not demonising capitalism, not shoving socialism down peoples necks, not demonising the super wealthy, not making a huge effort to get out the Labour vote in areas where most people are both on benefits and usually don't involve themselves in politics and don't vote. Yes the vast sink estates are where there are the most unemployed, and where most of the ex convicts, the alcoholics etc live, and it's just such people who almost never vote and have most to gain from a Labour gov.
Really target them and get them out voting! let the tories try and use it against Labour, make hay from it. tory monetarist greedy dog eat dog policies have left these people reduced to this generationally. Push the point that tory policies make the rich richer whilst crushing people like them.

Did anyone see "The decade the wealthy won" ? There was a grinning from ear to ear george osborne saying that yes of course when quantitive easing happened all that money went to those who already had assets and wealth and they got even more stinking rich overnight, as if it was a given, natural and right and only a complete cretin would have thought otherwise or had a problem with this! Show the poor what ****s such types really are! make them the enemy!

They should be pushing the "them and us" thing and demonising the wealthy owner of two homes with 4 cars etc, making it clear that they are the enemy of such people and that such types will suffer under Labour in order that those at the bottom end of the food chain can have a better life... much as the scum party demonises the so called "benefits scrounger" etc etc. Advertise the fact "He earns £120K a year and makes another £60K from shares whilst he sits on his arse! He only pays 3 times more council tax than you do on £10K a year! tories want to keep him happy and you ground down and exploited!" etc etc

Yes all this will make them vastly more unpopular with the accountant from Surbiton who drives a Merc... but they were very unlikely to get that vote anyway and would have needed to do very silly things like erm.... trying to be a tory lite... in order to do so

Sell socialism to society Labour!!
 
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