Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VI

[Enfield boy]

So why the overt sabre rattling? All that does is prove just what an annoying little yappy dog the UK is, reduce the tiny standing it has on the world stage and worse for Johnson and Truss personally they might be accused of saying one thing and doing another (lol) with Biden holding the key to the big red button.

 

[Tony L]

So why the overt sabre rattling? All that does is prove just what an annoying little yappy dog the UK is, reduce the tiny standing it has on the world stage and worse for Johnson and Truss personally they might be accused of saying one thing and doing another (lol) with Biden holding the key to the big red button.

I suspect it is a defensive smokescreen of huff and bluster to draw attention away from the countless £millions of Russian oligarch money sloshing around in Tory Party coffers, the vast amount of London that has been bought over recent decades in oligarch money-laundering schemes etc. Putin, Trump and our Conservative Party have a lot in common; they are all liars, asset-strippers, robber barons and bandits. I trust none. I’m far more inclined to take my cues from the EU, Biden, Nato etc. Our government is just too tainted by corruption.

 

[Seanm]

Interesting. I don’t have the in-depth knowledge of Labour, but I do certainly view them as highly authoritarian and imperialistic. My support of NATO in this scenario is the hope that a substantial multi-national defensive force placed on the border should prevent Putin’s expansionism, i.e. I am hoping it prevents any invasion, bloodshed and eventual retaliation. I see it as probably the most peaceful option currently available. Obviously there may well be other prices to pay, e.g. Putin using gas supply as a weapon.

I also agree with STW in that the Conservative Party is so riddled with dirty Russian money and wealth it can’t be seen as an impartial actor in this scenario. I see that as a reason to purely follow Nato and take as much decision making as possible away from such an obviously tainted and corrupt entity. The last thing I want to see is any unilateral action from a government that would place someone as thick as Liz Truss anywhere near a decision making process.

In factional terms, the old right are traditionally just very militaristic, it's a core part of their worldview. The new right are not quite so viscerally committed to war but are, frankly, mad cultists driven in large part by a desire to avenge Tones against the anti-war left who they blame for his political demise. There's sometimes some tension between the two groups but on war it's a love-in. Terrifying.

I can understand the desire to look to an international institution to save us from these loons and their opposite number, but, really, NATO. Their track record on avoiding cynically-motivated catastrophic bloodbaths through sensible, multilateral diplomacy is not spotless.

 

[Tony L]

I can understand the desire to look to an international institution to save us from these loons and their opposite number, but, really, NATO. Their track record on avoiding cynically-motivated catastrophic bloodbaths through sensible, multilateral diplomacy is not spotless.

I agree, but really there is not a lot of choice on the table. We have to start from where we actually are!

 

[Seanm]

So why the overt sabre rattling? All that does is prove just what an annoying little yappy dog the UK is, reduce the tiny standing it has on the world stage and worse for Johnson and Truss personally they might be accused of saying one thing and doing another (lol) with Biden holding the key to the big red button.

We have a really, really thick and belligerent media class who love sabre-rattling, don't care to distinguish between what certain politicians say and what they do, and will happily denounce as traitors anyone who appeals for caution and diplomacy. So there are no downsides to this kind of behaviour in the UK.

 

[Seanm]

I agree, but really there is not a lot of choice on the table. We have to start from where we actually are!

This is a good time to keep our distance from all of these appalling people IMO, lending support only to those calling for caution, realism and de-escalation.

 

[Enfield boy]

Unless Cummings releases the report on Russian money, that might actually cause Boris and the tories more widely some proper problems. If that reads like a wishlist of one it's not a bad wish!

We have a really, really thick and belligerent media class who love sabre-rattling, don't care to distinguish between what certain politicians say and what they do, and will happily denounce as traitors anyone who appeals for caution and diplomacy. So there are no downsides to this kind of behaviour in the UK.

 

[Woodface]

So, the world is complicated. Corbyn never had the chance to enact policies when in govt so he can espouse his usual blue sky thinking crap.

 

[Woodface]

Let’s not forget that Russia seems to be the aggressor here & everyone is saver rattling as the alternative is probably worse.

 

[Enfield boy]

Send Gavin Williamson then, he's "well 'ard."

 

[Seanm]

So, the world is complicated. Corbyn never had the chance to enact policies when in govt so he can espouse his usual blue sky thinking crap.

But his policies were and are substantively the same as the actual policies currently being pursued by everyone remotely sensible: negotiate, de-escalate. The blue sky thinking crap is that the U.K. is prepared to go to war with Russia for Ukraine. They’re not. It just makes some very horrible people rock hard to talk like they are.

 

[gavreid]

Keir Starmer’s cynical embrace of Nato is a sad sight indeed
Lindsey German
The Labour leader has directed his ire at anti-war campaigners, even though he knows we’ve been proved right again and again

[and exposed himself to Tory cries of hypocrisy]

• Lindsey German is convenor of the Stop the War coalition

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/keir-starmer-nato-labour-anti-war

 

[paulfromcamden]

Has Liz Truss not sorted out the Ukraine yet then? Next you'll be telling me we still import 2/3 of our cheese.

 

[Enfield boy]

Keir Starmer’s cynical embrace of Nato is a sad sight indeed
Lindsey German
The Labour leader has directed his ire at anti-war campaigners, even though he knows we’ve been proved right again and again

[and exposed himself to Tory cries of hypocrisy]

• Lindsey German is convenor of the Stop the War coalition

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/keir-starmer-nato-labour-anti-war

With each week he proves himself to be no more trustworthy than Johnson. Yes, I'd rather he was pm as he'd be less likely to torch everything during his tenure at No 10 but I'll be holding my nose if I vote for Labour while he's leader.

 

[Warren]

Let’s not forget that Russia seems to be the aggressor here & everyone is saver rattling as the alternative is probably worse.

I think the aggressors are the US and its NATO lapdog countries like the UK.

Perhaps were say Mexico to join a military alliance with Russia, and allow tens of thousands of Russian soldiers and missiles to be stationed on Mexican soil then the media would say the US was the aggressor for having tens of thousands of troops on Mexico’s border.

Nah, not likely, but Russia is the aggressor in the inverted scenario we see now?

Major cognitive dissonance required to believe that!

 

[Woodface]

I think the aggressors are the US and its NATO lapdog countries like the UK.

Perhaps were say Mexico to join a military alliance with Russia, and allow tens of thousands of Russian soldiers and missiles to be stationed on Mexican soil then the media would say the US was the aggressor for having tens of thousands of troops on Mexico’s border.

Nah, not likely, but Russia is the aggressor in the inverted scenario we see now?

Major cognitive dissonance required to believe that!

What about the people of the Ukraine? They seem genuinely upset by the prospect of Russia invading.

I’m afraid it is possible to see that actions of the US are ‘wrong’ & also that of Russia. The two don’t cancel each other out or justify the actions of either party.

I fail to see what point you are trying to make, it’s just whataboutery. That Putin is just such a nice man…

 

[sean99]

What a total f*n mess this is.

RE: anti-war protesters
Anti-war campaigners were right about Afghanistan and Iraq (and Vietnam) - but it was obvious to anyone with a brain that those wars would be a disaster.
However, going a little further back they were wrong about the Nazis and wrong about the USSR (the cold war might never have ended, or ended very differently had we listened to Michael Foot and CND. MAD is a very dangerous situation, but until all sides disarm unilateral disarmament is suicidal.

Corbyn can spout all of the idealisms he likes safe in the knowledge that he will never have any responsibility.

Putin is a thug and criminal and it's high time the west stood up to him. If he doesn't want Nato expansion then he should refrain from military exercises and troop mobilizations on his western border.

Agree with those who point out Britain's hypocrisy with laundering the oligarchs' money, then crying foul when their leader is emboldened. However, what is the west to do ? Do you really think if we agree to not allow Nato expansion Mr Putin will quietly recall his troops ?

If only all of Europe had realized that dependency on Russian gas exports is a greater evil that dependency on nuclear power stations (or even the continued use of coal). Again, it was obvious to anyone with a brain that as soon as western Europe developed an appetite for Russian gas it would be used as leverage.

To be clear, I don't want to see any UK or US troops involved, but I think giving Ukraine weapons to help repel the invasion is justified. I'd also like to see freezing of assets of Putin and his allies, including any UK property (though I'm much less hopeful about the latter part).

 

[vince rocker]

What a total f*n mess this is.

RE: anti-war protesters
Anti-war campaigners were right about Afghanistan and Iraq (and Vietnam) - but it was obvious to anyone with a brain that those wars would be a disaster.

Like many others I didn't oppose those wars because they would be a disaster, but because they were immoral, against international law and because violence is not the answer to anything.

However, going a little further back they were wrong about the Nazis and wrong about the USSR (the cold war might never have ended, or ended very differently had we listened to Michael Foot and CND. MAD is a very dangerous situation, but until all sides disarm unilateral disarmament is suicidal.

I don't think anyone* opposed action against the Nazis. Some people object to war and violence but as you will know many pacifist conscientious objectors worked in very dangerous humanitarian roles during the war. This does not mean they supported Hitler.

Similarly, the anti-war position in the cold war was against violence and nuclear weapons of mass destruction because they are immoral. That applies to the nuclear weapons held by any nation. You will remember for example the Greenham Common protests which were against US nuclear weapons.

* Apart from their sympathisers and apologists like Mosley and the Blackshirts, Edward VIII and Viscount Rothermere, etc.

 

[Seanm]

What a total f*n mess this is.

RE: anti-war protesters
Anti-war campaigners were right about Afghanistan and Iraq (and Vietnam) - but it was obvious to anyone with a brain that those wars would be a disaster.
However, going a little further back they were wrong about the Nazis and wrong about the USSR (the cold war might never have ended, or ended very differently had we listened to Michael Foot and CND. MAD is a very dangerous situation, but until all sides disarm unilateral disarmament is suicidal.

Corbyn can spout all of the idealisms he likes safe in the knowledge that he will never have any responsibility.

Putin is a thug and criminal and it's high time the west stood up to him. If he doesn't want Nato expansion then he should refrain from military exercises and troop mobilizations on his western border.

Agree with those who point out Britain's hypocrisy with laundering the oligarchs' money, then crying foul when their leader is emboldened. However, what is the west to do ? Do you really think if we agree to not allow Nato expansion Mr Putin will quietly recall his troops ?

If only all of Europe had realized that dependency on Russian gas exports is a greater evil that dependency on nuclear power stations (or even the continued use of coal). Again, it was obvious to anyone with a brain that as soon as western Europe developed an appetite for Russian gas it would be used as leverage.

To be clear, I don't want to see any UK or US troops involved, but I think giving Ukraine weapons to help repel the invasion is justified. I'd also like to see freezing of assets of Putin and his allies, including any UK property (though I'm much less hopeful about the latter part).

What do you think the Ukrainians are going to do with those weapons? And do you think the benefactors who supplied them are going to step in when Russia slaps them out of their hands and stomps on them?

I think this is all much more idealistic than the Stop the War position.

 

[sean99]

Like many others I didn't oppose those wars because they would be a disaster, but because they were immoral, against international law and because violence is not the answer to anything.

I don't think anyone* opposed action against the Nazis. Some people object to war and violence but as you will know many pacifist conscientious objectors worked in very dangerous humanitarian roles during the war. This does not mean they supported Hitler.

Similarly, the anti-war position in the cold war was against violence and nuclear weapons of mass destruction because they are immoral. That applies to the nuclear weapons held by any nation. You will remember for example the Greenham Common protests which were against US nuclear weapons.

The problem with taking the moral high ground is when your opponent has no morals. Some people will only cease their aggression if they are concerned that they will end up harmed themselves.