Labour Leader: Keir Starmer III

[Tony L]

I'm really talking about the whole self-styled centrist crowd who began the Corbyn era lecturing the left about pragmatism, elections being won from the centre, and having to be in power if you wanted to make a difference, and ended it claiming to see no difference between the Conservatives and Labour and voting for a hung parliament or whatever.

I’d argue that was a remarkably simplistic and revisionist perspective. A lot of us couldn’t possibly vote for a party that pandered to ethnic nationalism/racism and abandoned Labour for parties to the left of them. Others abandoned the party for the far-right (Farage’s Brexit Party took a very large number of Labour votes, especially up here in the ‘red wall’), others just loved a simplistic three word soundbite delivered by an improbably posh lying prick so voted for Johnson.

Whatever the reason Corbyn’s Labour lost by a larger margin than any other incarnation of the party in my lifetime, so can only possibly be viewed as a failure. Basically they lost votes in every single direction, which is exactly what happens when a party has no discernible ideology or conviction during a national crisis. Everyone who firmly held a belief, any belief, went elsewhere. They’ll do the same with Starmer too.

 

[ks.234]

Sir Michael Wilshaw on R4 criticising the DoE and Gavin Williamson. Michael Wilshaw ffs.

Nothing from Labour. Nothing. Pressure being put on this government from a very right wing ex head of Ofsted while Starmer offers his support.

Labour seems to have abdicated it’s most basic responsibility, to oppose. The only opposition to this government seems to be coming from ex Tories ministers and other right wingers.

 

[Tony L]

...and Caroline Lucas!

PS The Lib Dems seem to have dropped off the map too. Layla Moron is usually hugely articulate on education etc (physics teacher) yet I’ve not seen her interviewed in months. They are always hugely anti-authoritarian too, so have voted with exponentially more integrity than Labour over recent months, but they are not getting any coverage.

 

[ks.234]

Corbyn was the biggest coward of the lot. He didn’t even move from his fence of ambiguity when his own MPs were sharing platforms with racist groups like UKIP and burping-up tired old 1970s National Front rhetoric. As ever ‘what would Gillian Duffy & The Daily Express think?’ was the only barometer and explains the party’s total lack of scrutiny or opposition to the Trumpian popularist-right ideology sweeping the Tory party, tabloid media and the country. The man basically hid as EDL fascists marched up the high streets across the land shouting slogans many of his MPs supported. The only thing I’m unclear on is how much of this is down to shit leadership or shit internal structure and processes, or both, but the result is clear either way; a party that has been entirely unfit for the purpose of opposition to the political right for most of my adult life. They really are useless.

Please. The rules of the party mean that leader of the party is not in a position to get rid of MP’s , that is the sole responsibility of the NEC. This has been covered many times so the end user argument no longer holds water. There are any number of valid criticisms of Corbyn, but this is not one. Hard to think of any MP with a better record of actively speaking out against up the oppression of minorities

 

[ks.234]

...and Caroline Lucas!

PS The Lib Dems seem to have dropped off the map too. Layla Moron is usually hugely articulate on education etc (physics teacher) yet I’ve not seen her interviewed in months. They are always hugely anti-authoritarian too, so have voted with exponentially more integrity than Labour over recent months, but they are not getting any coverage.

Still to hear her speak out against academies

 

[Tony L]

FWIW I couldn’t give the slightest shit about the NEC! We needed a strong and unambiguous voice to stand up to and oppose the alt-right ethnic nationalism that has been rising in the UK over the past couple of decades. Labour were not even in that game! They had red anti-immigration mugs and a fence for a dickhead to sit on!

 

[Tony L]

Still to hear her speak out against academies

Layla Moran? She doesn’t seem too keen (her website). That was just a quick google, I suspect you’ll find more with some digging. Can’t imagine Caroline Lucas would be a big fan either.

 

[ks.234]

Layla Moran? She doesn’t seem too keen (her website). That was just a quick google, I suspect you’ll find more with some digging. Can’t imagine Caroline Lucas would be a big fan either.

Apologies. I looked when she was an MP and couldn’t find anything in the Lib Dem manifesto. Haven’t looked since and I should’ve done before posting.

 

[ks.234]

FWIW I couldn’t give the slightest shit about the NEC! We needed a strong and unambiguous voice to stand up to and oppose the alt-right ethnic nationalism that has been rising in the UK over the past couple of decades. Labour were not even in that game! They had red anti-immigration mugs and a fence for a dickhead to sit on!

You can’t blame Corbyn for any of that. Corbyn is not in the continuum of Labour’s drift to the right, he opposed it. He opposed it and he stood against Tory austerity.

If you want to blame anyone for the continued rightward drift look no further than the Lib Dem’s who were responsible for austerity and who torpedoed a cross part alliance to block a Tory Brexit last time out.

Corbyn didn’t sit on the fence, he accepted the result of a Democratic referendum, a referendum that was deemed binding by the government that the Lib Dem’s had supported and enabled in all their alt right ethnic nationalism.

As you know, I agree with you about the trajectory that politics has taken over the last few decades (at least). To blame Corbyn for that trajectory is just wrong. The Lib Dem’s enabled it in 2010 and sided with it, rather than those opposed it, in 2019. Corbyn was the only politician in decades to seek to challenge that trajectory, he failed in the face of a well funded and well connected campaign from the very forces of the alt right nationalists that you rail against, and the Lib Dem’s have sided with those forces at vital points in our recent past.

If we want to challenge the alt right ethnic nationalism, and the other ills which afflict us, we need someone with Corbyn’s convictions. They will of course face the same onslaught that was unleashed against Corbyn, and the Lib Dem’s will no doubt lend their weight to the onslaught.

 

[Tony L]

Again, voting record! Attempting to immediately invoke A50 is not standing against ethnic nationalism in any form, it is an act of total subservience. That is but one example.

PS I am not in any way defending the Lib Dems coalition record. I haven’t voted for them since that point. I do however view Layla Moran as one of the brightest voices in UK politics today. Again, assess her on her voting record as well as her words. The whole party’s recent voting record stands up to scrutiny, and Labour’s never does, never will.

 

[ks.234]

Again, voting record! Attempting to immediately invoke A50 is not standing against ethnic nationalism in any form, it is an act of total subservience.

Voting for A50 was not a vote for ethnic nationalism. Neither was it an act of subservience. It was accepting the democratic result of a referendum deemed binding by the very government that was aided and abetted by the Lib Dem’s.

Corbyn’s position after A50 was to seek a solution that included staying in the EU and the SM. Which would’ve been a whole heap better than what we have now. The Lib Dem’s enabled what we’ve got now too

 

[ks.234]

PS I am not in any way defending the Lib Dems coalition record. I haven’t voted for them since that point. I do however view Layla Moran as one of the brightest voices in UK politics today. Again, assess her on her voting record as well as her words. The whole party’s recent voting record stands up to scrutiny, and Labour’s never does, never will.

Mmmm?

I like Layla Moran, but her voting record is sparse to say the least.

However, as far as the Lib Dem’s as a party go.....their leader has voted ....

For reducing Housing Benefit

Against raising Housing Benefit

Against raising benefits for the disabled

For reducing Welfare Benefit

Against creating jobs for the young

Against raising income tax for high earners earning (above £150,000)

For reducing Corporation tax

For increased Tuition fees

For Academies

And although generally in favour of PR has on at least one occasion, voted against it

 

[Nick_G]

Voting for A50 was not a vote for ethnic nationalism. Neither was it an act of subservience. It was accepting the democratic result of a referendum deemed binding by the very government that was aided and abetted by the Lib Dem’s.

Corbyn’s position after A50 was to seek a solution that included staying in the EU and the SM. Which would’ve been a whole heap better than what we have now. The Lib Dem’s enabled what we’ve got now too

Oh come on! Corbyn stated that A50 should be triggered immediately right after the referendum result. That's either extreme stupidity, or pandering to the more unsavoury elements of the public.

 

[ks.234]

Oh come on! Corbyn stated that A50 should be triggered immediately right after the referendum result. That's either extreme stupidity, or pandering to the more unsavoury elements of the public.

52% of the public are unsavoury?

For clarity I criticised Corbyn for invoking A50. But it wasn’t a vote ethic nationalism, or subservience, or extreme stupidity. It was accepting the result of a Democratic vote.

If Corbyn had gone against A50 he’d have still been called extreme stupid, politically naive and all the rest for standing against a Democratic majority.

 

[droodzilla]

52% of the public are unsavoury?

For clarity I criticised Corbyn for invoking A50. But it wasn’t a vote ethic nationalism, or subservience, or extreme stupidity. It was accepting the result of a Democratic vote.

If Corbyn had gone against A50 he’d have still been called extreme stupid, politically naive and all the rest for standing against a Democratic majority.

https://camomentum.wordpress.com/20...it-from-the-eu-no-lets-get-beyond-post-truth/

I think Corbyn spoke clumsily but it's obvious his main priority is to acknowledge the referendum result while making the best of it. On this he has been absolutely consistent up to and including his recent vote against Boris Johnson's deal (unlike the vast majority of Labour MPs who campaigned "on principle" for a second referendum and then meekly walked through the Aye lobby on New Year's Eve Eve (sic)).

To equate this perfectly respectable position with ethnic nationalism, or to accuse Corbyn of being an enthusiastic Brexiter is wrong and insulting.

 

[Nick_G]

52% of the public are unsavoury?

For clarity I criticised Corbyn for invoking A50. But it wasn’t a vote ethic nationalism, or subservience, or extreme stupidity. It was accepting the result of a Democratic vote.

If Corbyn had gone against A50 he’d have still been called extreme stupid, politically naive and all the rest for standing against a Democratic majority.

I didn't say that 52% of the public were unsavoury. Surely only the fringe nutters wanted A50 triggered immediately?

Corbyn should have said that the democratic process to leave should start whenever possible, but much preparation will be necessary before A50 can be triggered. It really isn't rocket science!

 

[Nick_G]

https://camomentum.wordpress.com/20...it-from-the-eu-no-lets-get-beyond-post-truth/

I think Corbyn spoke clumsily but it's obvious his main priority is to acknowledge the referendum result while making the best of it. On this he has been absolutely consistent up to and including his recent vote against Boris Johnson's deal (unlike the vast majority of Labour MPs who campaigned "on principle" for a second referendum and then meekly walked through the Aye lobby on Christmas Eve).

To equate this perfectly respectable position with ethnic nationalism, or to accuse Corbyn of being an enthusiastic Brexiter is wrong and insulting.

It really didn't come across well drood. I've suggested what he should have said in my previous post. It really seemed to me (and I bet quite a lot of others) that he wanted the extremely complex and involved process of Brexit rushed through.

 

[Seanm]

I’d argue that was a remarkably simplistic and revisionist perspective. A lot of us couldn’t possibly vote for a party that pandered to ethnic nationalism/racism and abandoned Labour for parties to the left of them.

Yes, that’s where a lot of moderates ended up, and what I’m saying is there’s a big difference between “I won’t compromise my principles even if that means the the Tories getting the rock hard Brexit that will make them invincible” and “The left need to learn about pragmatism and compromise”, and getting from one position to the other was quite a trip wasn’t it. It’s not really revisionism if you’ve spent the last few years diagnosing this brainrot as it developed in real time.

 

[Seanm]

I didn't say that 52% of the public were unsavoury. Surely only the fringe nutters wanted A50 triggered immediately?

Corbyn should have said that the democratic process to leave should start whenever possible, but much preparation will be necessary before A50 can be triggered. It really isn't rocket science!

It was the position of every centrist’s fave Labour moderate, Yvette Cooper. It’s only from a fairly extreme perspective that it looks nutty.

 

[Tony L]

Yes, that’s where a lot of moderates ended up, and what I’m saying is there’s a big difference between “I won’t compromise my principles even if that means the the Tories getting the rock hard Brexit that will make them invincible” and “The left need to learn about pragmatism and compromise”, and getting from one position to the other was quite a trip wasn’t it. It’s not really revisionism if you’ve spent the last few years diagnosing this brainrot as it developed in real time.

Again the same loop, the same narrow timescale, the same revisionism. And again you seem to confuse me with being a Labour voter. I’m just not. I never have been. I have never bought into any party ideology. I always assess at the time of election and pick the party closest to me based upon voting record, track record, manifesto etc. I have always been a floating voter. No party has any right to my vote, they need to earn it!

I’ve viewed Labour as unfit for purpose long before the magic fence mascot and recent reality distortion arrived. The party has been wrong about the vast majority of issues I’ve cared about for all of my adult life; imperialism/nationalism (Iraq, Brexit etc), authoritarianism, PFI, state snooping, religious indoctrination in schools, electoral reform, monarchy, real environmental change including nuclear disarmament etc etc. To be honest the only discernible difference to the Tories is a very slightly more equitable/preferable and compassionate attitude to taxation and infrastructure spending, especially around the NHS and education, plus fat-cat union dinosaurs as financiers rather than big business and landowners. That is not enough to get my vote as long as far better options remain on the ballot paper. They just aren’t very useful to me. Sorry.

Anyway, they now no longer stand for anything at all! They have, since Gillian Duffy, dialled-out any ideology or conviction that could upset the right-wing tabloid media and are an increasingly obsolete career institution that apparently think they have a right to govern on account of not actually being the Conservative Party. Some of us expect rather more than that!

Anyway, why would I vote Labour, who so clearly don’t represent my views, when I could vote Green, who do?!