Labour at it again ..... anti-semitic just won't go away !

[Simon Vess]

Even assuming you are right in everything you say, you have given no reason why any sane person with a shred of humanity would continue to vote for the bunch of self -interested liars, fraudsters and bottom feeders who are currently busy destroying what they haven't already stolen.

But of course you aren't right.

It is precisely because Corbyn is proposing a much more equitable and fair set of policies, which will definitely represent a cost and a loss of power to the current Tory oligarchy, that he is being so systematically misrepresented and lied about by vested interests, via their usual media mouthpieces. I don't intend to rehearse the whole 1970s 'unions bad-bosses good' claptrap so beloved of the hard of thinking, but your characterisation of Corbyn as a 'dinosaur' contains a delicious irony.

How much more prehistoric a bunch could you find than the Rees-Mogg/Johnson/Farage etc.etc. herd, who base all of their rhetoric ( and no doubt their frequent self abuse) on a long defunct and even mythological conjuring of some past 'Greatness' which, if it ever existed, only did so off the backs of an impoverished home population and an enslaved colonial population. I'd add that it is patently obvious that a return to Victorian times and the resulting parless condition of the majority is exactly what the Tories seek.

Of course JC isn't anti Semitic. Neither is his party. It is just honest about the gross misdeeds of Israel, which, along with the misdeeds of Saudi Arabia and others, the Tory bottom feeders are happy to ignore, so long as there is a few quid in it for them.

JC's style is of course a little difficult for many to understand. He is doggedly persistent when it comes to conducting politics in a calm and measured way. He also hasn't always got it right.

But.. shall we perhaps compare JC to Theresa May? Falling apart at the rostrum during a major speech. ( What was that about.. I forget.. because the only memorable thing was her abject failure) Incapable of uniting her party. Too weak to form a Govt without ransoming the country to a bunch of Irish bigots and not called Maybot for nothing.. incapable of speaking or thinking sponteously without reverting to soundbytes and waffle.

Or perhaps I've got it all wrong and you will respond with a comprehensive and factual account of all the wondrous benefits, miracles and future, post-Brexit glories brought to us by ten years of Tory chaos?

Just for the record:

1 i hold the likes of Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg in utter contempt. They are hypoctrites and I can ( if pushed ) explain how I arrive at this position in a reasoned way

2. I believe Brexit to be a catastrophic blunder but like all other pundits I dont have a crystal ball and experience shows the dangers of trying to predict the future

In my opinion: the issues that have landed us where we are are down to a few simple causes:

I judge most folk to be relatively unconcerned with the finer points of sovereignty; in my opinion it has been the immigration issue that has been stoked up by some who sail precariously close to outright racism

Tony Blair failed to adopt the same controls that all other members of the EU adopted when some the Eastern European states joined and utterly misjudged the numbers of people wanting to come to the UK

When David Cameron took office he made severe cuts to spending on public services (aka “austerity”)

All the data shows clearly that as a group immigrants contribute more and take out less than the “ native” population from public services but because of “ austerity” the taxes being paid by the immigrants was not being spent on the schools and NHS

Cameron was quite happy for the anger at shortages in education and the NHS to be directed away from his government and onto immigrants. His hubris at winning the PR referendum, and the Scottish independence referendum led him to presume he could easily win the Brexit vote

It all backfired

So our present predicament has its roots squarely in Tony Blair’s administration; his mistakes were compounded by Cameron

So you want to know my political leanings?

Keep politicians out of things as much as possible.


My beef with Corbyn is that he believes exactly the opposite, which if extrapolated leads inevitably to a totalitarian regime

Socialism is intrinsically oppposed to individualism, and thus inevitably repressive in nature as all attempts to implement it in different countries at different times has shown quite clearly


To paraphrase Winston Churchill:

1.Capitalism is about the unequal sharing of happiness

2. Socialism is about the equal sharing of misery

For many folk I know personally who claim to be Socialists, option 2 is preferred as equality ( however one defines that) trumps everything else

Ime much of what poses as Socialism is in fact the politics of envy, many I know who start out as idealogical socialists end up as bastions of capitalism given half the chance

I have encountered too many champagne socialists ( aka hypocrites) in my time to take it seriously


Perhaps some of the points I have raised above cast light on my position ; why I protest that when I am critical of Corbyn and Socialism that I must somehow be some kind of secret agent working for the Tory party

I try to base my positions on evidence and reason; without wishing to apppear pompous these two features seem to be missing from much political debate which seems to be a mixture of invective and point scoring
Simon

 

[Simon Vess]

Considering this is a Hifi forum and even given the off topic tends to attract a large percentage of the traffic interesting how, Simon Vess has posted on virtually nothing in any of the actual kit forums. Do you live under a bridge by any chance Simon?

The relationship that I ( as a consenting adult ) have with my hi-fi system is nobody else’s business

Seriously I have what I consider to be a fabulous hi-fi system which i use for hours each day

I really dont feel any need to ask for or offer advice on this but I am happy to advise if asked

PS i dont get your reference to a bridge?

simon

 

[ariegur]

“I’m fairly sure he’s not an idiot”- would that be your proposition? Do you believe he’s an antisemite?

Some of his declarations are problematic.

Arye

 

[ariegur]

I'm not sure the law has yet caught up with these sort of covert techniques.

Of course the opinion is as legitimate as mine, and suggesting I'm saying different is disingenuous in the extreme. What is not legitimate is the Israeli influence, some of which may be routed through stooges in the UK.

I don't know exactly what is the Israeli influence. If it is official, then I agree that it is totally wrong. If it is about Israelis who are trying to convince not to vote for Corbyn, nothing is wrong with that.

Arye

 

[TheDecameron]

Some of his declarations are problematic.

Arye

I notice you skirt around matters. You were very candid in your earlier days here- before you started self-censoring. No need to be shy, I mean what’s the worst thing that could happen?

 

[ariegur]

I’m not up on what Palestinians think of Trump. Can you be a little clearer about your view of Corbyn?

If Corbyn is PM, the policy of the UK will be a blinded support of the Palestinians, maybe even support of terror organizations like the Hamas and the Hezbollah and support of the BDS.

Arye

 

[ariegur]

I notice you skirt around matters. You were very candid in your earlier days here- before you started self-censoring. No need to be shy, I mean what’s the worst thing that could happen?

What makes you thinking that I am self-censoring?

Arye

 

[TheDecameron]

I notice you skirt around matters. You were very candid in your earlier days here- before you started self-censoring. No need to be shy, I mean what’s the worst thing that could happen?

If Corbyn is PM, the policy of the UK will be a blinded support of the Palestinians, maybe even support of terror organizations like the Hamas and the Hezbollah and support of the BDS.

Arye

It’s a binary view of politics in every other country as either pro or anti- Israel. In large western democracies we have to be careful that one small tail doesn’t get to wag the dog.

 

[TheDecameron]

What makes you thinking that I am self-censoring?

Arye

You learned and you adapted but that’s good- it means you keep your less acceptable opinions offline and therefore without a platform here.

 

[Hempknight]

If Corbyn is PM, the policy of the UK will be a blinded support of the Palestinians, maybe even support of terror organizations like the Hamas and the Hezbollah and support of the BDS.

Arye

Far from blind, from my perspective Isreal is a terrorist state, guilty of far greater death, destruction, and persecution. The Isreali goverment can throw all the resources it likes at PR and lobbying, but it's actions, sadly, will always speak much louder.

 

[FireMoon]

Oh and here's the the oh so Jewish friendly Alistair Campbell not being a complete hypocrite at all. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/campbell-behind-pig-poster-7275427.html

 

[Mullardman]

Just for the record:

1 i hold the likes of Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg in utter contempt. They are hypoctrites and I can ( if pushed ) explain how I arrive at this position in a reasoned way

Well there is something we agree on. However, the only way I know to reduce the damage these crooks are doing, is to defeat the Govt which they dominate.

2. I believe Brexit to be a catastrophic blunder but like all other pundits I dont have a crystal ball and experience shows the dangers of trying to predict the future

I agree about Brexit. I'm not sure a crystal ball is required.

In my opinion: the issues that have landed us where we are are down to a few simple causes:

I judge most folk to be relatively unconcerned with the finer points of sovereignty; in my opinion it has been the immigration issue that has been stoked up by some who sail precariously close to outright racism

Tony Blair failed to adopt the same controls that all other members of the EU adopted when some the Eastern European states joined and utterly misjudged the numbers of people wanting to come to the UK

When David Cameron took office he made severe cuts to spending on public services (aka “austerity”)

All the data shows clearly that as a group immigrants contribute more and take out less than the “ native” population from public services but because of “ austerity” the taxes being paid by the immigrants was not being spent on the schools and NHS

Cameron was quite happy for the anger at shortages in education and the NHS to be directed away from his government and onto immigrants. His hubris at winning the PR referendum, and the Scottish independence referendum led him to presume he could easily win the Brexit vote

I'd say that is a reasonable, but incomplete/selective assessment. For instance, you don't factor in Blair's warmongering in the demise of 'New' Labour. You don't think much of the 'sovereignty' issue, yet notions, however naive of 'taking back control' extend very much to perceptions about laws and regulation.. not just immigration. You also don't mention the World Economic Collapse and the way in which the press and the Tories managed to pin all of the blame for it onto Gordon Brown, despite his handlng of it being widely praised here and abroad, and the fact that the economy was in recovery by the time the Coalition stumbled into power.

It all backfired

So our present predicament has its roots squarely in Tony Blair’s administration; his mistakes were compounded by Cameron

Well yes.. But you fail to mention that 'Austerity' was not necessary, except as a part of the overall 'ideology' which pervades the Tories since Thatcher and also includes rampant privatisation, outsourcing etc..most of which has been shown to fail in terms of economy and service provision, but to succeed spectacularly in pushing public funds into private hands.

You also only tangentially approach the very clear scapegoating of the poor, the unemployed and immigrants etc, implied by Cameron's Govt. and seized upon unchecked by the likes of the DM.

So you want to know my political leanings?

Keep politicians out of things as much as possible.

Does that equate to 'rolling back the state', 'deregulation', 'free market etc? Or is it that you just don't trust politicians? If the latter, how else do you suggest we organise and administer our country? In my view, the 'all politicians are bent' meme has become too established, but that said, with a population which is quite possibly and overall, the least politically sophisticated in Europe.. we are in general getting the politicians and hence the government we deserve.

My beef with Corbyn is that he believes exactly the opposite, which if extrapolated leads inevitably to a totalitarian regime

Socialism is intrinsically oppposed to individualism, and thus inevitably repressive in nature as all attempts to implement it in different countries at different times has shown quite clearly

You are making the classic ( possibly deliberate?) mistake of confusing Democratic Socialism, with Totalitarian Socialism. Neither the Labour Party or Corbyn is proposing a totalitarian one party state. In fact it is very easily arguable that we are moving rapidly closer to that with the rise of the extreme right, seemingly assisted, or at least not resisted, by the Tories.. with the help of the press and the BBC, which if not deliberately pro Right, is at least very poor in its attempts at 'balance'.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill:

1.Capitalism is about the unequal sharing of happiness

2. Socialism is about the equal sharing of misery

For many folk I know personally who claim to be Socialists, option 2 is preferred as equality ( however one defines that) trumps everything else Simon

Churchill was certainly a significant figure. He also, on occasion, reduced things rather too much to simplistic and wrong analyses.

You observation above is based on the incorrect assumption that socialism, particularly Democratic Socialism, is about equality. It isn't. It is about equalising opportunity of individuals and restricting the evils of unrestrained capitalism.

To summarise. However we got here, the only way to get out of here is to break the current Tory/media stranglehold on our political landscape. This will require that a lot of those who are 'natural' Tories in their thinking, wake up to the fact that their party has been infected by a particularly nasty strain of Tories and vote them out. Labour managed to purge itself of the 'Militant' faction in the past. The Tory party needs to do a similar job on its own ranks.. and quickly.

 

[ariegur]

You learned and you adapted but that’s good- it means you keep your less acceptable opinions offline and therefore without a platform here.

I admit that I have learnt a lot here and this is good for me.
If I understated your meaning, I can assure you that I am hiding nothing, I post what I think.
Try me if you want.

Arye

 

[richardg]

Considering this is a Hifi forum and even given the off topic tends to attract a large percentage of the traffic interesting how, Simon Vess has posted on virtually nothing in any of the actual kit forums. Do you live under a bridge by any chance Simon?

Also guilty.

 

[Still]

“ I was only joking”

The last refuge of one who makes comments wide of the mark

Or necessary clarification for those who have undergone a full humour bypass.

 

[TheDecameron]

Also guilty.

Rich, when you were cycling round taking the two finger selfies, did a kid point and cry “mum, that’s my mountain bike!”.

 

[Mullardman]

Also guilty.

BURN HIM!!!!!

 

[awkwardbydesign]

If Corbyn is PM, the policy of the UK will be a blinded support of the Palestinians, maybe even support of terror organizations like the Hamas and the Hezbollah and support of the BDS.

Arye

Oh good.

 

[Tony L]

Considering this is a Hifi forum and even given the off topic tends to attract a large percentage of the traffic interesting how, Simon Vess has posted on virtually nothing in any of the actual kit forums. Do you live under a bridge by any chance Simon?

This is true of many here. pfm seems very different to the conventional audio forum in that each room is in many ways its own ecosystem. Some folk live almost exclusively in either the music room, photo, diy, classic or wherever, and some only seem interested in the political threads here in off topic. I have no real objection to that at all, though feel I better understand a person’s perspective if I also understand their musical taste, attitude to audio etc too. I am on occasion a little suspicious when people post some pretty extreme political views without any apparent interest in the rest of the site, but I don’t think that is the case in this case.

FWIW I’ve always steered clear from banning political discussion outright the way so many audio and music forums do even though I am certain running it actually puts a lot of people off joining. I’ve always viewed music as being inherently political, e.g. it is impossible to consider blues, jazz, folk, punk, reggae etc without their political background as protest music, and you can pull a lot of classical into that too (e.g. Shostakovich etc). That needs to be open for discussion.

I find the dynamic in this room quite interesting as I don’t really understand how we got to where we are! It just strikes me as a little odd given politics is far from the site’s primary focus. I guess politics is in such a hopeless mess and so polarised at present it is just a mirror to what is happening.

 

[ariegur]

Oh good.

For whom?

Arye