Mike Reed
pfm Member
I assume you have testimonials to that !
Knocking Naim!
- Thread starter koi
- Start date
I assume you have testimonials to that !
G
Guest432
Guest
He won't have any testimonials if he has shaky hands.
Evil Emperor
Taller Than Stalin
Well first off, not really 'bulk'. A company the size of Naim is not a company the size of Sony. Sony buys in 'bulk', Naim buys in 'number'.
Second, the BOM on all products would be low when compared to the list price. How low depends on the branch of commerce the product flows into, and whether the price is set for a foreign or a domestic market (if you plan to export most of your goods in a connected world, home users could profit from not having an importer in the chain, but that would kill the export market, so the home price goes up).
The more a product falls into the luxury goods category, the higher the differential between BOM and end-user price. That's not scalping the end user per se, but there is still a manufacturing, distribution and retail chain to be paid for. Luxury goods are not necessity or normal goods - there's a more significant lifestyle change if you can't afford a tin of beans than there is if you can't afford a new power amplifier. This means luxury goods are always sold in smaller volumes than normal goods, and the requirement for paying for every step in the chain between factory and living room costs more per unit.
Put another way, I'd be surprised if the BOM of a Porsche Panamera was more than about double that of a Skoda Octavia, yet one costs just under £16k and the other costs a shade over £60k. But because you see more Skodas than you do Porsche on (most) roads, the margins are smaller but sustainable.
Of course, you can cut out the middle-men and go factory-direct. But, most people who buy good audio like to audition it before-hand, just as most people who buy cars like to take them for a test-drive before buying them. I would imagine the companies that sell direct or via eBay stores alone - for all their 'we are the future of hi-fi' piss and vinegar - actually sell in something between 'tiny' and 'homeopathic' quantities. That might be changing in the headphone world, where head-fi meets allow end-users to rock up with their latest online acquisition and share the experience with other headphone users, but the same doesn't apply in old-school hi-fi. Even the bake-offs don't quite have the same impact, because they are very much 'no humans involved'.
Mescalito
pfm Member
The reality is that, in the context of the home entertainment sector, the whole traditional hi fi industry is 'tiny' and 'homeopathic' in scale.
Chris
Evil Emperor
Taller Than Stalin
Yes, but there are degrees of tininess. A £20m company is huge when viewed from the position of a £200k company, but is microscopic compared to a £2bn one.
htm_1968
pfm Member
FWIW, I walked through the Naim Factory in September. Every item is built to order. There is no building for stock.
IIRC, the majority of the items being built in the week of my visit were UnitiQutes, Uniti systems, streamers and DACV1s. As for power supplies, there were were no Flatcaps or Hicaps on the order process board. As far as power supplies are concerned, it was mostly the 555PS used with streamers and CD players that was being produced.
There is no sense of mass production. Everything is hand finished, although obviously circuit boards are automatically popultated before being checked and hand finished. This is more a (largish) cottage industry than anything else.
IIRC, the majority of the items being built in the week of my visit were UnitiQutes, Uniti systems, streamers and DACV1s. As for power supplies, there were were no Flatcaps or Hicaps on the order process board. As far as power supplies are concerned, it was mostly the 555PS used with streamers and CD players that was being produced.
There is no sense of mass production. Everything is hand finished, although obviously circuit boards are automatically popultated before being checked and hand finished. This is more a (largish) cottage industry than anything else.
maxflinn
pfm Member
Hi Joe, I'm sure that Naim could engineer their products such that these PSU's do make an audible difference when used in conjunction with Naim kit (probably volume related), but if that's the case, they're audible differences that need not be there and exist simply to validate the cost/necessity of the PSU's, IMO.
Though to be honest, I doubt they even go that far and simply let expectation bias and suggestion combine to form the basis of a snowball of mythology.
That's how I see it, I appreciate that I've not demoed and that you have. Maybe one of us is wrong, who cares if you're happy, and let's face it, you usually are, that's why we like you
Evil Emperor
Taller Than Stalin
Hi Joe, I'm sure that Naim could engineer their products such that these PSU's do make an audible difference when used in conjunction with Naim kit (probably volume related), but if that's the case, they're audible differences that need not be there and exist simply to validate the cost/necessity of the PSU's, IMO.
Though to be honest, I doubt they even go that far and simply let expectation bias and suggestion combine to form the basis of a snowball of mythology.
That's how I see it, I appreciate that I've not demoed and that you have. Maybe one of us is wrong, who cares if you're happy, and let's face it, you usually are, that's why we like you
I suspect the original idea of putting the power supply physically outside the preamp case was simply good working practice. In the 1970s. Electronics has moved on from there, but many of Naim's legion of followers still demand a range of external power supplies, because they view them as an upgrade path.
Perhaps this is a legacy argument today. Naim seems to be neatly divided between maintaining the old range of products (and thereby servicing the original client base, who demand an upgrade path through power supplies and the rest) and a new generation of all-in-one products (UnitiQute, SuperUniti, etc) that don't stress the same 'stairway to heaven' approach.
The only downside to that is it makes for a bewildering product line. When I was into Naim, I never really got the upgrades thing - I just got the amps I liked the sound of, and stuck with them for years. But I could afford to hit the Naim route relatively far up the ladder, and I can understand how someone with a cheaper pre-power might want to end up with the more exotic stuff, but could only afford that in stages.
To each, their own, I guess.
Michael J
pfm Member
I think it was (post WW2, in the UK) more to do with pre-amplifiers being classed as luxury items, hence subject to purchase tax, whereas power amplifiers were "industrial equipment" and as such did not attract that tax. That is at least the reason for Quad valve sets taking their supply from the power amplifier - overall lower cost to the consumer helps sales.
Evil Emperor
Taller Than Stalin
Joe P
Memory Alpha incarnate | mod; Shatner number = 2
Max,
Ah, so you're a white belt foo fighter.
In the interests of fairness I need to disclose that while I am a subjectivist I have done proper blind tests and I have a black belt.
Shaolin Master Po, Ummm, I mean Jo
Ah, so you're a white belt foo fighter.
In the interests of fairness I need to disclose that while I am a subjectivist I have done proper blind tests and I have a black belt.
Shaolin Master Po, Ummm, I mean Jo
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Michael J
pfm Member
It was replaced by VAT in 1973.
hammeredklavier
owner of two very cheap hi-fis
The grumble is it's appalling value for money. You can buy an excellent integrated amp for the price of a FlatCAP.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
I have HiFi News magazine from November 1998, where Paul Miller measured a Naim CD3.5 player jitter with the various power supply alternatives.
The jitter did get a little better as you went up the range
Built In 308ps
Flat-Cap 215ps (50Hz reduced)
Hi-Cap 190ps (DAC TDA1305 jitter reduced)
This makes some sense as the 317 is excellent at 50Hz, but rubbish at rejecting higher frequencies
Evil Emperor
Taller Than Stalin
So, it doesn't apply to Naim's love of the external power supply, because the company began in 1973. However, it might have created an environment where the external power supply was expected, and - as I said - might create benefits in a 1970s context that are not as great now.
I didn't have the option of upgrades past the 72/Hi-Cap when I got on-board the Naim bus, because that was top dog at the time. I'm not sure I would have gone for something bigger, but if it sounded better I probably would have done.
Michael J
pfm Member
I think you might be getting a bit hung up on the expectation of external power. In the days of separate valve sets with multiple AC and DC requirements, post-war austerity, and so forth, it was fully reasonable (even sensible) to tap some low volts AC and a smidgeon of high volts DC from a power amplifier's hefty transformer in order to run the control unit [and, in the case of Quad, through it the tuner(s)].
I think it more likely that Naim initially just followed an already established path for controller without internal supply drawing its juice from the power amp. It was a well understood concept.
Rob400
pfm Member
Naim gear is so extremely popular because it holds its value so well IMO. The second hand market is ripe for those with upgraditis. They can constantly upgrade through the Naim range without major financial loss. I did it myself for 15 years and it makes the path very appealing. The reality is that the sound quality of there products is very good, anyone arguing against that is deluded, but it is surpassed by some other manufactures gear IMO. Like the LP12 it's products are fiercely defended by its owners though, especially on this site and the Naim forum. I suppose the so called Naim knockers are at best those who see the range for what it is, very good but not the ultimate and try and discourage some of the back slapping ignorance. I've found that somewhat like trying to convince a Jehovah's Witness that there beliefs don't add up. Good luck converting a Naimee .
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bob atherton
pfm Member
That would be logical. Yes just the single brow.