Knocking Naim!

[F1eng]

I can assure you that mark ups in the car components business are VERY thin

Yes, the bulk of the profit for parts suppliers comes from selling spares.
It is a while since I was involved but back in the 80s when Lotus Engineering were trying to interest Detroit in licencing their active suspension system the engineers were told the competition for a GM mass produced car was $5, dampers $1 each and springs $1 a set of 4. At that time the servovalves alone were $4000 a set. No sale!
It would be inappropriate for me to quote the make, but I was told the manufacturing cost of a few cars by a senior member of one maker and it was quite close to 10% of the UK retail for the cars. The parts cost is small, the R&D, tooling and marketing costs are huge.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

Naim gear is so extremely popular because it holds its value so well IMO. The second hand market is ripe for those with upgraditis. They can constantly upgrade through the Naim range without major financial loss. I did it myself for 15 years and it makes the path very appealing. The reality is that the sound quality of there products is very good, anyone arguing against that is deluded, but it is surpassed by some other manufactures gear IMO. Like the LP12 it's products are fiercely defended by its owners though, especially on this site and the Naim forum. I suppose the so called Naim knockers are at best those who see the range for what it is, very good but not the ultimate and try and discourage some of the back slapping ignorance. I've found that somewhat like trying to convince a Jehovah's Witness that there beliefs don't add up. Good luck converting a Naimee .

But convert the Naim owner to what, exactly? Maybe I've just not heard these Naim-beaters but I've heard more than enough systems whose owners think their systems are better than my mainly Naim setup. That's all down to personal taste and in the end, that's what matters, isn't it?

 

[MichaelC]

But convert the Naim owner to what, exactly? Maybe I've just not heard these Naim-beaters but I've heard more than enough systems whose owners think their systems are better than my mainly Naim setup. That's all down to personal taste and in the end, that's what matters, isn't it?

"That's all down to personal taste and in the end, that's what matters, isn't it?"

Exactly.

I have heard a number of systems, albeit not high end systems, and I am pretty happy with my hybrid Linn, Naim, Avondale, Monitor Audio system.

At the price point of what I have I simply haven't come across alternatives which have made me stop and change direction.

Some may not like what I have, but at the end of the day it does it for me. And that is what it should be about and to that end Naim deserve their success (or failure) because at the end of the day they will either succeed or fail based on whether or not their offering is an attractive proposition.

Surely we should be commending a British success story whether we like or dislike the product? Better for UK plc?

 

[Maxbertola]

I own and use Naim only since 2005. In the past, I used to have Naim from 1984 to 1997, sparingly.
I know the forum well, I write on it. Often. I know Naim is addictive, I know it's expensive, I know that some devotes are unbearable. So what?

Naim gear is: well built, reliable, serviced (all of it, since early 70s), easy to use, elegant.
But most of all, I am into music since when I was a kid, and work in music since 1982, and spend my weeks among musical instruments. I still think that Naim, all in all, sounds more like real music than most other brands.

Naimism can be questionable, and Naimees annoying, but I live well with the gear. Yes, I have changed and spent and bought and sold, but I have acquired experience, and haven't lost much. Now, whatever I buy, I'll know what I'm buying. And why.

M.

 

[Whaleblue]

Oops...wrong forum...


now I'm embarrassed.

LOLing in a very anal way

 

[James]

The grumble is it's appalling value for money. You can buy an excellent integrated amp for the price of a FlatCAP.

The scales fell from my eyes eventually when I got onto the CDSII/52/135s rung of the ladder. They were second-hand items, bought at around half their original retail prices, but they still left a big hole in my finances.

The CDSII/XPS was considerably bettered by Densen B-400XS for far less money, and I'm not alone in that view. The 52/135s were very nice sounding amplifiers, but they command a lot of money for 75+75W, which - in my case - fell somewhat short for driving Ergo E-Vs to their full potential. The Naim dealer suggested NAP300, but I defected to Densen instead.

I don't consider myself to be a Naim knocker. I still have a Naimed LP12 and I'm very fond of my CB NAIT2.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I've had 3 full Naim systems (never owned there speakers though) and have never really felt short changed. But the CDX I bought new, did have to be exchanged after a few weeks, it had a wonky/ill fitted swing draw thingy.

 

[James]

I still think that Naim, all in all, sounds more like real music than most other brands ...

... I have changed and spent and bought and sold, but I have acquired experience, and haven't lost much. Now, whatever I buy, I'll know what I'm buying. And why.

That's the curious thing I can't get my head around. It's like saying, my BMW feels much better to drive than any other automotive brand, but I'm constantly looking to get a bit more out of it and looking for the next factory enhancement and maybe the next model up. So, whilst I'm "happy" with my car, I'm not really as happy as I can be.

But maybe that's just it. People like Naim for their music-making ability and so are much more discerning / OCD about what they enjoy. As such, they are also more critical of flaws. Since nothing is ever perfect, Naim is just another slippery slope but with a steeper gradient.

 

[Rob400]

But convert the Naim owner to what, exactly? Maybe I've just not heard these Naim-beaters but I've heard more than enough systems whose owners think their systems are better than my mainly Naim setup. That's all down to personal taste and in the end, that's what matters, isn't it?

I agree that it's down to personal taste Tony. However I bet that most Naim users haven't heard many high end non Naim systems. My old Naim CDS3 for example wasn't as good as my Densen 440xs. Not a doubt. Certainly not in my Dynavector Shahinian system. Not with any genre of music. I owned the SBL and SL2 and on reflection they sounded great with very well recorded, open, full bodied rhythmic tracks but could all too soon become too forward, dry, harsh and compressed. The amps are the best thing they manufacture IMO. Very addictive sounding with the best Rock recordings but with Traditional Jazz and Classical. No way!

 

[arthur]

He won't have any testimonials if he has shaky hands.

It's the shaky hands and the sandpaper that's the dodgy bit.



I'm sharing too much here....aren't I?

 

[Cereal Killer]

Pics or it never happened!

 

[Suffolk Tony]

I agree that it's down to personal taste Tony. However I bet that most Naim users haven't heard many high end non Naim systems. My old Naim CDS3 for example wasn't as good as my Densen 440xs. Not a doubt. Certainly not in my Dynavector Shahinian system. Not with any genre of music. I owned the SBL and SL2 and on reflection they sounded great with very well recorded, open, full bodied rhythmic tracks but could all too soon become too forward, dry, harsh and compressed. The amps are the best thing they manufacture IMO. Very addictive sounding with the best Rock recordings but with Traditional Jazz and Classical. No way!

Well, equally I could say that I don't care for Shahinian speakers or Densen amps, and I certainly could never describe either SBLs or SL2s as being any of those things you attribute to them. (Don't do trad. jazz but have a very large classical collection which sounds super through my system) Perhaps your setup was defective in some way? Or the truth is, we all like different things from our music reproduction systems and it only takes a short time in the presence of fellow music fans to appreciate this.

All a bit of a pointless discussion really but then practically all the posts on here nowadays are around what we like and can't understand why others should think differently.

Oh, and I bet the majority of the owners of so-called "High End" Naim systems have indeed heard alternatives. I can't prove this, it's only based on my experience, but then you can't prove they haven't.

 

[Rob400]

I rent my case mi lud!

 

[Weiss-Man]

I have had 3 all naim systems over the years, and currently just have a Qute2, which whilst being the cheapest system owned, is also the best VFM, 10% of the cost but 70% of performance. I can see both sides, in that it amazes me that there are clearly people who think there is no life without Naim. They are generally also the same people who are never satisfied with what they have, and are always wanting that next step up. I think this is a sad way to be, they seem to hang onto everything Naim says/recommends/launches. I am considering building a main system at the minute, and as much as I love the Qute, I will not look at Naim for more upmarket items. Very simply down to the fact that I don't feel they are value for money, and also some items past there sell by date! I refuse to get on the upgrade ladder.
Alternatively, we all have choices in life, and a product that suits one, will not suit another.

 

[Evil Emperor]

I have had 3 all naim systems over the years, and currently just have a Qute2, which whilst being the cheapest system owned, is also the best VFM, 10% of the cost but 70% of performance. I can see both sides, in that it amazes me that there are clearly people who think there is no life without Naim. They are generally also the same people who are never satisfied with what they have, and are always wanting that next step up. I think this is a sad way to be, they seem to hang onto everything Naim says/recommends/launches. I am considering building a main system at the minute, and as much as I love the Qute, I will not look at Naim for more upmarket items. Very simply down to the fact that I don't feel they are value for money, and also some items past there sell by date! I refuse to get on the upgrade ladder.
Alternatively, we all have choices in life, and a product that suits one, will not suit another.

I'd also add the SuperUniti in that. It has the same properties as the Qute, but legitimately offers a lot more grunt and power. I've heard it twice now - once on the end of a pair of PMC Twenty 23s and more recently through a pair of the Neat Motive SX3 - and in both cases the system made me think you could happily live with that sound for good. The Qute is fantastic, but a little underpowered IMO.

 

[maxflinn]

I suspect the original idea of putting the power supply physically outside the preamp case was simply good working practice. In the 1970s. Electronics has moved on from there, but many of Naim's legion of followers still demand a range of external power supplies, because they view them as an upgrade path.

Perhaps this is a legacy argument today. Naim seems to be neatly divided between maintaining the old range of products (and thereby servicing the original client base, who demand an upgrade path through power supplies and the rest) and a new generation of all-in-one products (UnitiQute, SuperUniti, etc) that don't stress the same 'stairway to heaven' approach.

The only downside to that is it makes for a bewildering product line. When I was into Naim, I never really got the upgrades thing - I just got the amps I liked the sound of, and stuck with them for years. But I could afford to hit the Naim route relatively far up the ladder, and I can understand how someone with a cheaper pre-power might want to end up with the more exotic stuff, but could only afford that in stages.

To each, their own, I guess.

Fair points.

 

[PhilDick]

I have a Naim system and have no idea if it's better or worse than anything else!

 

[maxflinn]

Max,

Ah, so you're a white belt foo fighter.

In the interests of fairness I need to disclose that while I am a subjectivist I have done proper blind tests and I have a black belt.

Shaolin Master Po, Ummm, I mean Jo

Joe, the cheek, I'm a 3rd Dan black belt twice removed

Actually I've been removed on many occasions because of my phooeyness

 

[heihei]

I'm in two minds on this. I'm on my second Naim system (and still own the first). When I bought my first one (92/90/CD3) I spent 6 months demo-ing various stuff. The second time round (202/200/HiCap/Unitiserve), I listened to a mates' system, had a few demos, and bought, basically fell in love with the sound and so bought the system.
I'm now looking at a few upgrades, and it does irk me a bit that Naim build to a price rather than pack in the best they can to everything, but then again they are a business.

If the above sounds like I'm a pure Naimite, then not true - when I built a system for my father who listens solely to classical music, I quickly realised that at the price point he was looking at, the olive kit didn't do it. Instead I went down the valve route, with an EAR V20 and some Living Voice speakers.

 

[Napsac]

My main system is naim - ish. I fell out with naim when the penny dropped they (dealers) want you on their upgrade path. I sold the 82 , bought a drum kit, an old 32 and a soldering iron.
What makes them so diy - able is they are very well engineered to sound their price.

The emotive posts on this forum testify that after you've spent £x000 on some holy grail box of Salisbury electronics, are you going to admit, "yea, it,s OK, sort of, bit better than the one box in the kitchen". Your going to have to worship it, never mind the music, just play top quality reference recordings that naim endorse, it'll sound great and you can bask in the knowledge you have a piece of kit plebs can only dream of (by the way, what ever happened to Mick Parry ?)

The young generation have largely rejected the long winding upgrade path, the hifi dealers still surviving are those offering what people want be it computer based or a cinema system for the telly.

Having looked at the latest naim gear, it's good, but the price, is it just HiFi snobbery ?