Item Audio "Spoke" for the Linn LP12 anybody..?

[ictmanager]

READ

http://www.teresaudio.com/manuals/teres_speed_tech.pdf

THEN LISTEN.

If you don't agree, then fine. Enjoy your system.

I thought I had good long distance vision and only needed glasses for reading. Even at the optician's, who said I had very good long distance vision, but did say that distance lenses might make a slight difference. But I DID order them, and when I DID get my varifocals I CAN now see the individual leaves on distant trees so much more distinctly, better detail, more contrast, and I can discern the individual movement of individual leaves in the breeze. So there WAS a little more to squeeze out of my vision. And from my Spoke experience, from my ears too.

Apart from me, how many more of you are willing to actually try it?

 

[sq225917]

Yeh, so what, I see they have no measurement to back up their piece of advertising puff. Does it not strike you as curious that all these companies claiming to improve deck speed, Item audio, Teres, and even the Technics 1210 boys like Timestep have no speed stability data to show you, I wonder why.

@Item, why on earth would I bother coming round to the stall you are on? Are you going to let me pick your deck up and twist the sub-chassis from underneath to an audience. If you I'll book a time if you like.

Sondek, did we lose our cool?

 

[sonddek]

Yeh, so what, I see they have no measurement to back up their piece of advertising puff. Does it not strike you as curious that all these companies claiming to improve deck speed, Item audio, Teres, and even the Technics 1210 boys like Timestep have no speed stability data to show you, I wonder why.

I don't need to make measurements to hear the difference between these:
http://cyberphotographer.com/technics/apoc9A.mp3
http://cyberphotographer.com/technics/apoc9B.mp3

If you can't hear that only one of these stays in tune, then lucky you, crack open a beer and move on.

@Item, why on earth would I bother coming round to the stall you are on? Are you going to let me pick your deck up and twist the sub-chassis from underneath to an audience. If you I'll book a time if you like.

You almost sound scared to find out whether you're wrong about horizontal plane displacement. You can test rotation of the subchassis by pushing backwards at 6 o'clock on the platter and pulling forwards at the arm base. Please video your face when you do this.

Sondek, did we lose our cool?

No.

 

[sq225917]

Oh, I didn't realise you recorded them with a Spoke. Is there something you aren't telling us Sondek?

Fortunately I don't really care whether your LP12 has a woefully inadequate speed controller, motor, worn belt, poor suspension set-up, (take your pick) after all i'm not likely to buy your old fruit box to replace my SME now, am I? So the whole question of the effect of the Spoke really doesn't affect my enjoyment of vinyl.

Scared, lol you are funny, it must be your age. If you'd like you can meet me there on Sunday, What time would suit you and your buddy from Item Audio?

 

[sonddek]

Oh, I didn't realise you recorded them with a Spoke. Is there something you aren't telling us Sondek?

The only thing I haven't told you is that the difference between those latest two recordings is this:

So far this is the best sub-chassis stabilising experiment I've tried, since it is the least damaging to timbre, while still doing a good job of stopping the honky-tonk piano sound. The cotton thread must be pulled quite taut before taping down the second bit of tape.

Fortunately I don't really care whether your LP12 has a woefully inadequate speed controller, motor, worn belt, poor suspension set-up, (take your pick)

There's no evidence for what you're saying. It was recently set up by a widely respected maintainer of Sondeks. I find it's speed stability no different to that of several other top-spec Sondeks I've heard in the last year. All Sondeks allow the sub-chassis to wobble freely in the horizontal plane. Why should this thread stabiliser have a different effect on a deck with a Urika, for instance?

after all i'm not likely to buy your old fruit box to replace my SME now, am I? So the whole question of the effect of the Spoke really doesn't affect my enjoyment of vinyl.

So why fill this thread with your scorn if it holds no interest for you?

Scared, lol you are funny, it must be your age.

Just joking, obviously. My purpose was to question why you feel the need to antagonise Item in this way. He's been very reasonable on this thread, as far as I can see, even though there are a lot of negative opinions offered by people who have never been anywhere near his product.

I don't need to be Item's friend to want to correct some of the bogus analysis of this product on this thread, provided by several very authoritative commenters. A lot of that analysis has just been plain wrong, viz "this mod will equally affect both vertical and horizontal compliance of the suspension equally because the subchassis does not rotate around the centre of the three spokes...".

 

[sq225917]

You sure are a sharp shooter with that 20/20 hindsight rifle of yours. I'll not bother reminding you of where you said that the sub-chassis cannot move with the spoke fitted.

Pick your time, I'll see you there.

 

[darrylfunk]

all that vitriol and tweaking and a bog standard cd sounds better.....

 

[Dinovector]

all that vitriol and tweaking and a bog standard cd sounds better.....

What's a bog standard CD? Is it something new?

 

[sonddek]

You sure are a sharp shooter with that 20/20 hindsight rifle of yours. I'll not bother reminding you of where you said that the sub-chassis cannot move with the spoke fitted.

Pick your time, I'll see you there.

I really don't understand what you're trying to prove. Having been alerted to the existence of this device by this thread, I posted this on page one:

This looks like a very cunning and well designed piece of engineering to me. Rotation of the sub-chassis should be pretty much eliminated, while some degree of vertical isolation is still retained.

...and this on page two:

The spokes will not stretch or compress much along their own axes because they are made from a stiff material. Their resistance in that direction will have the effect of obstructing rotation of the subchassis very effectively. As can be seen in the photo, the rods are arranged tangentially to platter rotation, and they are at about 120 degrees to each other, making rotation of subchassis relative to motor in the vertical axis all but impossible.

I still say that when you actually examine a spoken Sondek you are going to be surprised by the extent to which the spokes resist horizontal forces and torques. I won't be at the show, but don't forget your crowbar ;-)

 

[sonddek]

all that vitriol and tweaking and a bog standard cd sounds better.....

That's unsurprising. Bog standard CDs have pretty good speed accuracy. I don't know what vitriol you're referring to.

 

[vinylkid58]

That's unsurprising. Bog standard CDs have pretty good speed accuracy.

Well, at least they're good for something.

jeff

 

[sonddek]

I've just been experimenting with the thread and tape. Pulling it very taut definitely takes some life out of the timbre. If it's not taut at all it doesn't cure the wobbly piano blues. There's a happy medium of tension in the thread that is the best compromise. It doesn't need very much tension at all to cure the wow problem though. I reckon half a millimetre of arm board movement towards the plinth is all that's required. You need to make sure the thread doesn't slip.

I've also tried a single human hair instead of thread, to consider the idea that maximum strength-to-weight ratio in the stabiliser should minimise motor noise transfer. It failed to fix the piano's wandering tuning, even though I made sure it was quite taut. It seemed to be considerably more elastic than the thread in that it didn't seem to inhibit miniscule horizontal movements of the sub-chassis-platter driven by gentle finger taps on the arm base. Going back to the thread revealed minor timbral differences from the hair and much more tuning stability. I am now pretty convinced as a result of my own experiments that there is a firm correlation between restriction of horizontal sub-chassis movement and the ability of the deck to keep instruments and voices perfectly in tune. I am increasingly of the opinion that the secret to the Sondek's popularity is that the loose sub-chassis adds a distinctive tremolo/vibrato effect that people love, even though it's not in the original recording, and that after 26 years I have finally grown tired of that effect.

This is an easy experiment to try and I encourage anybody with a Sondek to give it a go, and listen for tunefulness of instruments as well as other stability qualities.

 

[darrylfunk]

please explain exactly what does tunefulness mean in your opinion as i don't think you have grasped the meaning of the explanations i pointed out earlier about the relationship between the tune ( a mono melodic line ) and harmony or musical tension?
oh and you can leave the vitriolic name calling out of the reply this time as i am only trying to advance the actual discussion not make a sport out point scoring with engineers or audio boffs.....

 

[sonddek]

please explain exactly what does tunefulness mean in your opinion as i don't think you have grasped the meaning of the explanations i pointed out earlier about the relationship between the tune ( a mono melodic line ) and harmony or musical tension?
oh and you can leave the vitriolic name calling out of the reply this time as i am only trying to advance the actual discussion not make a sport out point scoring with engineers or audio boffs.....

I mean the ability of the system to (a) play back a note consistently at the pitch it was recorded rather than allowing that pitch to vary when it didn't do so in the original performance, and (b) thereby make tunes (and harmonies) easier to understand, and appreciate. I don't see this as a controversial use of 'tuneful', as it combines both the senses in 'a nice tune' and 'out of tune', but I'm not a professional musician, so please forgive me if I have got something wrong.

 

[sq225917]

So you mean 'speed accuracy' then, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[sonddek]

So you mean 'speed accuracy' then, nothing more, nothing less.

No, I mean 'tunefulness' because (a) I have no way to measure speed accuracy except by listening for 'tunefulness' and (b) speed inaccuracy is not the only kind of distortion which can affect 'tunefulness' so the two qualities are distinct.

 

[Alb]

Hi been reading the thread
twas thinking speed acuracy would be getting that black disc thingy spinning at exactly 33.33 revs a minute and speed consistency keeping it there . Why do i hear an improvement after cleaning the pulleys and belty ?
in the gospel according to linn { the brochure linn used to give out } i remember that a violin note was a Quarte of a milliont of an inch ,hope i got that right .
How about miniture rose joints for the spoke like they use in radio control cars that might be a worthwhile thing to try .

 

[ictmanager]

To Sonndek:
I could not agree with you more in virtually everything you have said about the Spoke theory. My experience of the practice of them is that the carbon fibre rods are the best ones as they affect freedom of the vertical motion of the subchassis least of all. (Item allow a choice of Spokes in Stainless Steel, Titanium or Carbon Fibre) I also have found that they seem to sound the best on my LP12.

To Speed:
Please would you explain what Rose Joints are? If they are what I think they are, then they would probably not work as well as flexing rods due to the transmition of vibration and tolerances causing slight looseness within the joints. I had wondered about some kind of hinge instead of rod...after all the German Phonosophie company use Leaf springs on their 'take' of the TD160.

To SQ225917:
Chill, mate.

 

[Alb]

Hi ICT I can understand why carbon spokes would be better than stainless , having riden a carbon bicycle compared to steel much deader in a good way , yeah your right about the rose joints they would have lateral movement ,
people seemed so worried about the effect on the suspension maybe a super low friction connection on one end of the spoke attachment like a rose joint but without the lateral movement could work .
I have a custom top plate with the motor at the front and no hole for the switch i don,t care about putting three extra holes in it seeing as there not visible anyway plus an old steel subchasis , so it can,t wreck any thing is there a money back garauntee if you don,t like it ?

 

[ictmanager]

Hi ICT I can understand why carbon spokes would be better than stainless , having riden a carbon bicycle compared to steel much deader in a good way , yeah your right about the rose joints they would have lateral movement ,
people seemed so worried about the effect on the suspension maybe a super low friction connection on one end of the spoke attachment like a rose joint but without the lateral movement could work .
I have a custom top plate with the motor at the front and no hole for the switch i don,t care about putting three extra holes in it seeing as there not visible anyway plus an old steel subchasis , so it can,t wreck any thing is there a money back garauntee if you don,t like it ?

I have looked into the rose joints available....interesting idea...
If you buy the Spoke kit and ask for carbon rods, they will crush easily, so just be careful tightening up the grubscrews...I chose the carbon ones because in a simple test, they flex easily, yet longitudinally (lengthways) they are solid....The titanium spokes are my second choice.
You'll have to ask Item Audio if there is a money back guarantee....I have no connection with them...
What is your custom top plate made of, and how thick is it? Are you considering a subchassis change too?