Item Audio "Spoke" for the Linn LP12 anybody..?

[per-Sony-fied]

Well, I accidentally bumped into this chap yesterday and had a demonstration. First I knew about it having been away from forums and such for a while.

I came across this thread through someone giving me a nod at the show.

Anyhow as sceptical as I was that this couldn't possibly be the right answer or that the unmodded deck may have not been set up 100% (it's easy to think/assume these things), this system did actually appear to work very well indeed. Piano was remarkably more pitch stable. It was a short demo but nonetheless impressive demonstration.

This "kit" is retrofittable (so I'm told) to ALL sub-chassis; Keel,Cirkus,Sole,Greenstreet, Rubikon(maybe, it has a hole) etc

 

[sonddek]

Thanks for your first hand impressions - very interesting, if not unexpected.

 

[James]

Piano was remarkably more pitch stable. It was a short demo but nonetheless impressive demonstration.

Did you compare directly with an unspoked LP12?

This "kit" is retrofittable (so I'm told) to ALL sub-chassis; Keel,Cirkus,Sole,Greenstreet, Rubikon(maybe, it has a hole) etc

I'd like to see a Keel owner take a drill-bit to the most prized slab of aluminium. I imagine it's a bit tricky to locate the holes between ribs, and even more so when you have a Khan with concentric fluting. Bags not me first.

James

 

[per-Sony-fied]

Did you compare directly with an unspoked LP12?


James

Yes, two identical decks. One with rods/spokes and one without. Even the plinth on both decks were black ash.

Actually, let me say the spoked deck had their version of SS top plate. Not sure what the diff was, looked pretty similar but they said it was better.

 

[sq225917]

Heard it today, better pitch stability, but treble is pushed forward and the increase in background noise is obvious. I'm not sure the set-up was 100% on either deck either, certainly the spoked one had a very uneven vertical bounce.

 

[YNWOAN]

I also had this product demonstrated to me. The designer seemed a nice chap, bur I'm afraid that I didn't agree with any of the design rational he expressed/described and I didn't like the subjective effect of the modification (low level resolution seemed particularly reduced).

I'm afraid I would not recommend that any owner with a RubiKon chassis attempted this modification.

(I noted that the spoke modified deck had the armboard bolted to the chassis whilst the standard deck did not. The designer assured me that this had no subjective impact, but that is not my experience. In addition, the setup of the two decks suspension was quite different - the spoke modified deck had a very uneven bounce and either the springs, or the spokes, or the combination of the two were fighting each other)

 

[sonddek]

Did anybody test the deck to see how much horizontal movement of the sub-chassis was allowed by the spokes?

 

[Paul R]

Yes.

Paul

 

[YNWOAN]

Yes, of course - they (the spokes) behave as I expected.

To be honest, I am entirely unconvinced that this is an issue that needs to be addressed, or that, if it is an issue, this is an appropriate solution. I realise that you disagree, but that is my opinion.

 

[sonddek]

Yes.

Good.

 

[sq225917]

Did anybody test the deck to see how much horizontal movement of the sub-chassis was allowed by the spokes?

I did too. On his little stand alone rig you could hold the frame with your fingers and push the armboard anticlockwise with your thumb, more than a mm. It was much as I expected.

 

[sonddek]

I did too. On his little stand alone rig you could hold the frame with your fingers and push the armboard anticlockwise with your thumb, more than a mm. It was much as I expected.

Interesting. How much force did that mm require? Was it play, i.e. did the resistance to horizontal movement seem to ramp up very quickly with deflection? Did you notice the sub-chassis trying to move vertically when you pushed it? Did you notice any resonance in the horizontal direction when you released it? Thanks - sorry for so many questions but I have still not had a chance to examine one for myself.

 

[Item Analogue]

Heard it today, better pitch stability, but treble is pushed forward and the increase in background noise is obvious. I'm not sure the set-up was 100% on either deck either, certainly the spoked one had a very uneven vertical bounce.

Heard it today? that means I must have demonstrated it to you, funny I don't remember either your Pork-pie hat or Ray-ban's? You weren't trying to remain incognito were you Situation engineer? What a pity, I, on the other hand, had put myself directly in the firing line. Perhaps a case of talking a good fight.....

If I am not much mistaken, YNWOAN is the plinth man from Cymbiosis? Very nice plinths they are too, better by some margin that Linns own, but if Linn made them this well the turntable would have to cost well over a thousand pounds, possibly even more......

I think that the 'perfect' bounce thing is really a bit of a red herring, the unspoken linn which you said bounced nicely, spent a good part of the weekend jumping out of the groove during demo's (shared table with Stamford Audio, and people 'flipping' through records) however the spoked one never once did, and it is managing to do this having had a fundamental reduction in one plane of its 'isolation' system, or were you saying that if I got it bouncing better it would sound even better? hmmm, perhaps you might be on to something...

Also noted by YNWOAN (if I'm right about your identity) was that the second deck (spoked) was louder, in fact, you thought I had turned up the amplifier, I pointed out that the control I was using to switch between the two decks was simply a switch between the two arm cables, so the effect (which I later concentrated on and agreed with) can probably be put down to the cartridge being in a more stable relationship with the record and therefore being driven 'harder' by the modded TT. This I'm sure could be measured quite easily, it certainly makes perfect sense doesn't it?

Curious though, if this is the case, that the noise floor seemed higher to situation engineer, you would have thought that the increased generator output would reduce noise wouldn't you?

Anyhow, very pleased with the fact that you all felt it a significant enough event to reply the very same day;

Thank you all for your covert visits, and for your bravery under fire.

PS, I still can't get the thing to rotate or displace in any direction no matter how hard I push on it, now, where's that bottle jack?

 

[steve1ooo]

I stopped and had a listen.And yes the spoked deck sounded better.
while such a short demo with head phones isn`t going it make me a true believer
i will investigte further. Perhaps a demonstration at a dealer?

Regards

 

[sq225917]

No mate, noise is noise. Any vibration in the table will be picked up by the cart, I could clearly hear the breakthrough of what i assume was motor noise, which was superimposed upon the signal.

10 extra db of gain would pick up a proportionate amount of extra noise as well. You can't pick and choose. I didn't particularly notice the spoked deck being louder per-se, but I did notice a higher percentage of the output being noise. i thought they were well matched.

You can discuss what you think might be a red herring regarding the bounce of the LP12, but let's be honest here- the world disagrees with you on that. The spoked deck displayed a remarkably uneven bounce which cannot be in any way beneficial.

For me it was noisier and pushed forward in the treble, maybe a different set of spokes and more careful set-up may alleviate this.

 

[James]

... so the effect (which I later concentrated on and agreed with) can probably be put down to the cartridge being in a more stable relationship with the record and therefore being driven 'harder' by the modded TT. This I'm sure could be measured quite easily, it certainly makes perfect sense doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. A cartridge generates voltage output in proportion to groove modulation. It can't be "driven harder" unless you're playing a different record with 1812 on it.

 

[YNWOAN]

If I am not much mistaken, YNWOAN is the plinth man from Cymbiosis?

No, sorry you are mistaken, that is Chris Harban, though I do know him (I'm not American). I did chat to Chris later and he told me his thoughts regarding the demonstration. However, I am not he and the thoughts I have expressed are my own.

so the effect (which I later concentrated on and agreed with) can probably be put down to the cartridge being in a more stable relationship with the record and therefore being driven 'harder' by the modded TT.

I don't agree. Although I appreciate that you made an effort to reduce variables, I'm afraid there were still far too many variables for me.

 

[Gaius]

Heard it today? that means I must have demonstrated it to you, funny I don't remember either your Pork-pie hat or Ray-ban's? You weren't trying to remain incognito were you Situation engineer? What a pity, I, on the other hand, had put myself directly in the firing line. Perhaps a case of talking a good fight.....

If I am not much mistaken, YNWOAN is the plinth man from Cymbiosis? Very nice plinths they are too, better by some margin that Linns own, but if Linn made them this well the turntable would have to cost well over a thousand pounds, possibly even more......

I think that the 'perfect' bounce thing is really a bit of a red herring, the unspoken linn which you said bounced nicely, spent a good part of the weekend jumping out of the groove during demo's (shared table with Stamford Audio, and people 'flipping' through records) however the spoked one never once did, and it is managing to do this having had a fundamental reduction in one plane of its 'isolation' system, or were you saying that if I got it bouncing better it would sound even better? hmmm, perhaps you might be on to something...

Also noted by YNWOAN (if I'm right about your identity) was that the second deck (spoked) was louder, in fact, you thought I had turned up the amplifier, I pointed out that the control I was using to switch between the two decks was simply a switch between the two arm cables, so the effect (which I later concentrated on and agreed with) can probably be put down to the cartridge being in a more stable relationship with the record and therefore being driven 'harder' by the modded TT. This I'm sure could be measured quite easily, it certainly makes perfect sense doesn't it?

Curious though, if this is the case, that the noise floor seemed higher to situation engineer, you would have thought that the increased generator output would reduce noise wouldn't you?

Anyhow, very pleased with the fact that you all felt it a significant enough event to reply the very same day;

Thank you all for your covert visits, and for your bravery under fire.

PS, I still can't get the thing to rotate or displace in any direction no matter how hard I push on it, now, where's that bottle jack?

Quite a lot wrong with the post here although some of it has been corrected above.

 

[MVV]

Pleased to see you guys are still on the case. I'm sure you will soon have the LP12 fixed and working properly.

 

[per-Sony-fied]

.... or were you saying that if I got it bouncing better it would sound even better? hmmm, perhaps you might be on to something...

A good bounce normally means better sound but more importantly a good relationship between all the springs generates a much better sound as the deck then bounces UP and DOWN (given the bolts are vertical) in a pistonic motion and any lateral movement of which you are trying to eradicate is greatly reduced.

PS, I still can't get the thing to rotate or displace in any direction no matter how hard I push on it, now, where's that bottle jack?

I too found it hard to notice any lateral movement but I did not have my x-ray eyes on so to speak. Maybe on another day in another situation I would scrutinise it much further.