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Is Naim snake oil?

Rockmeister said:
I have no wish to stir, but your concern for Naim's reputation is disproportionate to the VERY mild comments in this thread. Is that 3 or 4 times now you've gone on about Naim bashing?
Point to me to the post numbers that are doing such damage. I can find none.
All kit has friends and enemies. Were it not so, forums would be a millpond af tranquility, and a bit less fun IMO.
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If you care to do a bit of work for yourself looking through various threads you will find that every time anyone starts a Naim thread a small group of thread crappers always stick their uninvited oar in to badmouth the company.
I am not alone in noticing this.
Some of the remarks on here are are snidely put and not mild at all.
You talk about my 3/4 contributions.
Casual reading of back threads will soon throw up one poster who has posted double figures in the last 12 months thread crapping Naim at every opportunity.
I listened to a great deal of equipment over the years before deciding on what I have owned for over 10 years unchanged. A lot of the equipment I auditioned I found execrable. The same equipment has many vocal followers on here. I let their enthusiasm pass unchallenged. Their tastes are their tastes as you maintain.
I find your statement that kit has enemies rather strange.
I would suggest anyone who finds themselves an enemy of a hi fi company seek psychological help.
As several others have pointed out this thread was started clearly to encourage the Naim bashing that some feel a need to do on here.
That was clear in the wording, using the vernacular beloved of the bashers.
 
Mullardman said:
Well yes.. that is of course what most people do. BUT. This is a discussion forum. It seems to me that if a company offers products, it is legitimate for any interested party to query what is on offer or why the product is designed the way it is. Nobody here has instructed anybody else what to buy. nobody has called NAIM kit, or the NAIM Co. 'rubbish'.
It's just discussion.
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I think we both know that these threads are never really about discussion, but far more about people needing, for some reason, to have a dig! At the end of the day unlike cars and certain other purchases you can experience hi-fi at its full potential before you buy.... there is no need to spend money before you find out what it's like! If you buy it and decide you've been ripped off it's not so much snake oil on behalf of the hi-fi company, but more like stupidity on the part of the purchaser! That applies to Naim or any other manufacturer btw!
 
pjdowns said:
Why though, as I pointed out earlier, it is because you are paying for the name.

The base NDX for just shy of £4k is meh, why couldn't they have put a better power supply in the NDX in the first place because that is what seriously lets it down. My Cambridge Audio/Beresford combo bettered the NDX sound wise by quite a margin for 5x less money.
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To answer the first part: there's no point putting an expensive power supply in that will degrade the signal through interference when they make a choice of much larger external PSUs which is their recommended upgrade path. That's especially the case since a fair number of customers are likely to buy the NDX with a separate power supply and won't want to have paid a fortune for an internal power supply that is not being used.

You may not agree with Naim's logic, but a logic there is....
 
Arkless Electronics said:
No there isn't. In fact the whole Naim power supplies upgrade thing makes no difference.
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In technical terms I tend to agree. My ears tell me otherwise (my experiments have been with circuits similar to Naim but not with their actual kit).

And... are all those people enjoying Les' TPR4 wrong?
 
I concluded they were after owning a Nait 5 for a month, replaced it with rega (without loss) but later a CD5x changed my mind. Still haven’t heard a Nait, super or otherwise, I’ve liked though I’ve ended up with a whole pile Naim of separates and even speakers without regret.
 
Ponkbutler said:
To answer the first part: there's no point putting an expensive power supply in that will degrade the signal through interference when they make a choice of much larger external PSUs which is their recommended upgrade path. That's especially the case since a fair number of customers are likely to buy the NDX with a separate power supply and won't want to have paid a fortune for an internal power supply that is not being used.

You may not agree with Naim's logic, but a logic there is....
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Hmm, IIRC, one of the mags reviewed the cheaper ND5 XS which Naim confirmed contains the same DAC as the NDX but NDX has a "better" therefore one assumes larger PSU. Based on your logic, the cheaper ND5 should be better? :confused: I seem to recall that Naim were coy when the reviewer asked what happened when both units were hooked up to an XPS :)

Anyway, good luck to Naim but in todays world where SMPS' are more efficient and can be made to perform much quieter than big expensive toroidal transformers, as Chord, Linn, Devialet etc. have long realised, the Naim external PSU upgrade path does seem to be anachronistic.
 
S-Man said:
In technical terms I tend to agree. My ears tell me otherwise (my experiments have been with circuits similar to Naim but not with their actual kit).

And... are all those people enjoying Les' TPR4 wrong?
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Naim put an RC filter of 27R and 47uF at the power input of their kit. This in effect isolates the equipment being powered from the PSU, (increasingly so with rising frequency, with a turnover point of 126Hz) making the PSU largely irrelevant. It wouldn't matter what PSU was used as all will sound much the same.
 
Mick P said:
Mull

Stop being a grumpy old man.

No one cares about what Naim do, all we care about is its core values values of quality, longevity and its ability to communicate music.

I like Naim, you may not. You cares bugger all about what I think and I cares bugger all about what you think.

If you really want to start WW3, start a discussion on cables and then rethink your attitude to what is claimed.

Basically comparing hifi products is plain bloody pointless because we all got different ears.

Regards

Mick

PS - have a good 2018.
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And a very good 2018 to you too Mick.
Apart from the fact I'm not the least grumpy, and am not questioning NAIM's quality or longevity.. And apart from the obvious fact that many question the NAIM approach, and that I'm not actually comparing products in this thread..
Then you are spot on... :)

Mull
 
tiggers said:
I think we both know that these threads are never really about discussion, but far more about people needing, for some reason, to have a dig! At the end of the day unlike cars and certain other purchases you can experience hi-fi at its full potential before you buy.... there is no need to spend money before you find out what it's like! If you buy it and decide you've been ripped off it's not so much snake oil on behalf of the hi-fi company, but more like stupidity on the part of the purchaser! That applies to Naim or any other manufacturer btw!
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The bloke asked a question. 'Is NAIM Snake Oil?'. We all know what 'Snake Oil' means.

So. We could all refuse to respond.
Or we could all say 'Yes it is'
Or 'No it isn't'.

Or, we could do what we have done and actually discuss the various issues which are constantly raised about NAIM kit.

FWIW,and to demonstrate my even handedness, I would join in any similar thread about any other company which had a similarly idiosyncratic approach and divided opinion in the same way.

'Is Linn Snake Oil..?'... ;)
 
I'm sure that as a company and as an employer they are wonderful. They also produce well made equipment of good longevity and built with good quality parts. My issue with them is the circuit topologies, which are completely obsolete and, as I've explained at some length earlier, the same as used in various public address amps and mid priced integrateds in the early to mid 70's. It seems bizarre, to me anyway, that no one seems to give a tinkers cuss that the A&R A60 power section is virtually the same as a NAP250 (minus the 250's regulators of course) but you get a pre amp and phono stage thrown in with the A60...
 
The thread seems very moderate to me. I guess that most Hi-fi is a bit on the snake oil side. It is rather niche with a literally dying market. I imagine the only way to make a living is to ramp up the marketing and milk what's left of the market before it goes under the sod for good. No harm in that, if folk are daft enough, insecure enough and can afford it so what?

The reality is you can get excellent sound for peanuts today but that doesn't buy you an identity and I have never thought buying hi-fi was about buying sound quality anymore than buying a car was about getting from a to b.
 
The date of the circuit topology is irrelevant if people like/select the product in a dem! The simple fact is an A60, lovely though it is, does not sound like a 250 (I have owned both so know them well!). Naim is good well-made kit that will last a lifetime if properly serviced (the Vereker-era stuff anyway). Given the amount of badly made unsupported crap out there that ends up in landfill after a decade or less I’ll never understand why this stuff isn’t the hate target. Second hand Naim is almost up there with the ‘golden age’ tube amps etc as an investment potential. Total cost of ownership is always high in my mind, I’m happy to spend a lot of money on audio kit, but I only spend cleverly and never lose any cash! I would happily own another 32.5/Hicap/250 or similar had I the right system context for it as a mint, boxed and properly serviced example will sound just as it should and never ever lose you money.
 
I didn't say an A60 and a NAP250 sound the same... just that the circuitry is virtually identical in the power section. It goes through the A&R pre first of course plus there are detail changes.
Personally I think they are poor sounding amps and I would not give one house room. I'd take a passive pre with a Quad 306 over ANY Naim amps all day long on performance grounds.

For what it's worth, I like the Aro and the CD players are pretty good IMHO.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
I wouldn't expect it to and for the reasons I explained above...[/QUOTE
ERICLIMPIT said:
I once owned a Naim cdx2 which was very good, then, in pursuit of audio nirvana I spent £1500 on an xps2 power supply for said cd player, it made little or no difference at all.
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Did you not demo it first? I used to own Naim Olive and I liked it.Felt proud to own it. But times move on and after some financial pressures I sold it and replaced it with some second hand Japanese kit. Enjoy this just as much and don’t miss the Naim now. I still admire Naim though I’ve not listened to the newer stuff. I do think it’s overpriced though.
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Ponkbutler said:
How do your new amps compare with your old Naims? Not much opportunity to audition them here in the UK....

I ask as a fellow Shahinian owner....
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I never used the Naims with the shahinians but I did have a dynavector HX1.2 & L100 with the old Obs and now a Modwright LS36.5 & KWI200 (only using the power section) with the new ones.

Dynavector is similar to Naim but to me sounds more controlled and faster in the bass than Naim and generally more refined across the freq range. The Modwright is another step up from Dynavector but I think that is pretty much down to the LS 36.5 pre I'm using.
 
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