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Impossible speakers?

Cesare said:
Sorry to drift this even further off topic, but acoustics are surprisingly irrelevant in control rooms - even when people used to try hard they generally sounded terrible, but these days I think there's even less effort put in. Control rooms are used these days for tracking, and a rough mix - this change happened with the move from analog mixing where access to the large console was paramount to mixing, to the modern 'in the box' approach where basically the product from the studio is a ProTools session with the tracks and various takes included, and the mix is generated within ProTools. The mix produced during recording is just there as a guide, and for everyone involved to hear it and know that they've caught the idea and the feel they want. The mix will need fettling, and this is the job of the mixing and mastering engineers. So the monitors in the control room are to hear what's been recorded, and to judge whether you need to capture more takes to get the source material for the recording.

The actual hard work of comping the tracks, fixing anything that's a bit dodgy, and then putting an exciting mix together is done in a much cheaper space - no point tying up a live room + console for this task, and this other space will be the treated one, and is less likely to have huge monitors and outboard gear. Ok, some mix and mastering engineers still use outboard gear, but the number doing this is maybe less than you'd think.
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I don’t think that is anywhere near the truth when it comes to classical music or labels like ECM.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
What an odd question. Surely, convenience has to be a secondary consideration after, you know, actually delivering something suitably like the music. Not necessarily high end, or perhaps not even hifi (depending on context) but convenience isn’t the first question I’d be asking.
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Some people like the ritual, others don't.
 
I wonder if the Icon Audio range of speakers might suit? I have a pair of MFV 6 speakers and they sound great..they are designed for low power amps so sound great on a few watts..mine took a long time to run in..but worth the wait
 
tuga said:
I don’t think that is anywhere near the truth when it comes to classical music or labels like ECM.
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Also if using any name mastering engineer e.g. Robert Ludwig, Bernie Grundman, Steve Hoffman, Kevin Gray etc, as it was back in the days of ‘Porky’ etc. You are paying for both the considerable skillset and the high-end mastering suite environment that such folk need to do their work.

ECM do this in house as the label is owned by a recording engineer, Manfred Eicher, with an exceptionally clear vision of the sound he wants. Most classical labels will be fully in-house with very high levels of mastering and quality control. The stuff that can suffer is small indie and pop stuff that is self-produced right through the whole chain, i.e. is served up based on hearing it through whatever the artist could afford. Sometimes this approach works exceptionally well, other times the end result is less than it could be as mastering is a skillset.
 
alanbeeb said:
The iron law is not generally true. It's universally true.
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I suspect there are ways to "bend" Hoffman's Iron Law using psychoacoustics, so that the listener may perceive a loudspeaker in a particular way.

For example a small loudspeaker having a mild upward trend in the frequency response heading towards the bass from the middle of the audio spectrum before the bass response drops off. I think that takes advantage of the way humans perceive loudness to make a small loudspeaker seem capable of going louder compared to what the theory says the loudspeaker should do.
 
TimF said:
I usually don’t like to recommend something that I own, especially with speakers, as they are so personal as to what sound one may enjoy, but my WLM La Scala monitors could be an option. Supposedly about 91 dB, 8” mid-bass driver and oh my, a cone tweeter!
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I like the sound of cone tweeters, going by the ones in my treasured Videotone Minimaxes. These look interesting... but surely you haven't left behind the One True Path of omnidirectionality, Tim? 🤔
 
John Phillips said:
I suspect there are ways to "bend" Hoffman's Iron Law using psychoacoustics, so that the listener may perceive a loudspeaker in a particular way.

For example a small loudspeaker having a mild upward trend in the frequency response heading towards the bass from the middle of the audio spectrum before the bass response drops off. I think that takes advantage of the way humans perceive loudness to make a small loudspeaker seem capable of going louder compared to what the theory says the loudspeaker should do.
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Humans fill in lower octaves perceptually. It's the reason that listening to music on a tranny radio was ever even viable. 2" speakers with no output at all below 100hz but that's not how they sound. I can't recall what the technical name for the effect is, but it's a real one.
 
gez said:
I was thinking the same thing. I can't recall ever seeing a stand mount over 90dB. Though obviously that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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The Stenheim Alumine Two, for example, with a claimed sensitivity of 93db spll 2.83v/1m.
 
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davidsrsb said:
The Klipsch Heresy IV is tested at 93 dB, but is a 5 Ohm speaker
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How have they managed to get a Heresy down to 5 Ohm?! The original and I think MkII peaked up at over 60 Ohms around the mid horn as I recall! I had a pair of the transitional “Mk 1.5” for a while and they were a very efficient and easy to drive speaker. Very little bass, so needed to sit flat on the floor against a wall, but great fun. Wish I’d kept them, they’d be great with the Leaks.
 
As others have said, there is no free lunch. Only 'standmount's that actually have a realistic 90dB efficiency are Acoustic Energy AE2s and 10" Tannoys like the Stirling TWW, SRM10b and Chester for example although all on the chunky side. Oh and the older 8" Tannoys like the DC1000, very affordable.

Rega R1s are 89dB, compact and 'attractive' but at the expense of any real deep bass, that's the trade off.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
It’s quite a big box though. As are the Fyne Audio models I mentioned upthread.
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You think? A bit deep, perhaps, but it couldn't be much smaller and still accommodate a 6.5" woofer and 1" tweeter. Linn Kans are only an inch shorter, and 1.5" narrower, and I think of them as small stand mounts.
 
alanbeeb said:
Or get bigger speakers and a decently powerful amplifier
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The speakers I have are already too big. The amplifier I have is Class A to 30w/8ohms, doubling into 4 and then A/B to about 90w/8ohms and is entirely powerful enough for a small room where I do not listen loud.
 
al2002 said:
P.S:- In the end, discussion of sensitivity and amplifier power each on their own are irrelevant; what really matters is how loud a speaker can play in a given room without obvious distortion. Having heard a number of high quality active stand mount speakers - Genelec 8531/8361, Kii 3, Neumann 420, but, alas, not the D&D - over the past year or two, any of them will play very cleanly at levels loud enough to damage your hearing, have the neighbours banging on the walls and getting the family well and truly upset.

So the question remains, why focus on 90 dB/W sensitivity?
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The 90db/w was simply a benchmark level to steer away from the 85bd crowd. A stable electrical resistance value closer to 8ohms rather than 4 would also help the amplifier and subsequent bass response.
 
To be fair, I've used my old ATC SCM10s (80dB/1w/1m) with everything from a 10wpc T-Amp to a 90wpc Sony Integrated amp in a small room (9ft Square) at low volumes and it was more than fine, I'd not be too worried with sensitivity in a small room and a 30wpc amplifier.
The ATC SCM7 & SCM10 are an easy electrical load too.
 
davidsrsb said:
The Klipsch Heresy IV is tested at 93 dB, but is a 5 Ohm speaker
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That would probably work but has too much against it: poor assembly due to mass production, butt-ugly looks, neither a floorstander nor a bookshelf and very low pride of ownership value. It looks like a box somebody left on the floor.
 
Hoopsontoast said:
To be fair, I've used my old ATC SCM10s (80dB/1w/1m) with everything from a 10wpc T-Amp to a 90wpc Sony Integrated amp in a small room (9ft Square) at low volumes and it was more than fine, I'd not be too worried with sensitivity in a small room and a 30wpc amplifier.
The ATC SCM7 & SCM10 are an easy electrical load too.
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The only ATC I would consider is the SCM19 but I'm pretty certain they represent a challenging electrical load for the amplifier. I have heard them with Naim and didn't think they were bad at all. That woofer magnet is a massive piece!
 
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