Impossible speakers?

[barryb]

I don't think such a beast exists, OP. I was on a similar hunt myself because I really liked my low powered valve amp. I'm guessing you're going amp first thinking too. Something like an old Snell or used AN-J was about as close as I could get...

Ultimately I decided that wasn't prudent and it really limited my options, and really, it's room/speakers where it's at.

 

[al2002]

Has no-one mentioned the Iron Law of Loudspeakers yet? There 3 basic things about speakers - size (smallness), sensitivity and bass extension. you can only ever get 2 out of 3.....

• small speakers will have limited bass extension or low sensitivity....so most designs are a compromise
• high sensitivity speakers have to be large or will have limited bass extension - so most designs are a compromise
• speakers with good bass extension will either have to be large or they will be low sensitivity. - so most designs are a compromise

I did, up thread. So did Tony L

 

[alanbeeb]

While this might be generally true, there are a number of small speakers that fall outside of these parameters. I have a pair: The MAD 1920S. They are small in size, 90dB, 4 ohms, rear-ported and have a unusual amount of good quality bass energy and extension. Plus, they can be placed comfortably 25cm from the wall behind. (I'm considering selling them...small plug).

The iron law is not generally true. It's universally true.

Manufacturers printed specs are generally willfully optimistic.

 

[alanbeeb]

Kinda makes you want to ditch it all and just compete in professional basket weaving instead...

Or get bigger speakers and a decently powerful amplifier

 

[Cesare]

Hello all,
According to the collective PFM wisdom, does a pair of good-looking, nominal 8 ohm and over 90db, stand-mounted, neutral sounding and not stupidly-priced speakers exist on the market today? It's like searching for a needle in a haystack. What about the poor folks who need to satisfy these criteria?
Seems I would have better luck spotting Nessie and taking a selfie with Bigfoot...

No, and the reason is your set of required specifications make no sense today (and i'm not sure anything really looked like this as a stand mount design anyway).

Modern power amps are more powerful, and can cope with lower impedance speakers without problem, so the speaker designer uses this to produce a flatter response and/or a smaller cabinet to achieve the same performance but at a lower sensitivity/lower impedance. It's the right compromise for modern audiences.

So modern small designs are more like 6 ohm, and around 87db/m. Amps can provide the extra power to achieve the same volume, homes are smaller, most people don't want massive SPL as they live in flats/have small rooms.

If you want an old school NS1000 style design, the second hand market will sort you out. They won't be as flat as modern designs though, but they will be cheaper.

 

[al2002]

AFAIAC, further discussion would be unproductive unless the OP provides details of his current system and the reasons for his dissatisfaction with his existing hardware. It's pretty cut and dried actually: if you want more acoustic output buy a more powerful amp or bigger speakers, or both. Several posts have made this point already, so what exactly is the OP asking for?

 

[al2002]

P.S:- In the end, discussion of sensitivity and amplifier power each on their own are irrelevant; what really matters is how loud a speaker can play in a given room without obvious distortion. Having heard a number of high quality active stand mount speakers - Genelec 8531/8361, Kii 3, Neumann 420, but, alas, not the D&D - over the past year or two, any of them will play very cleanly at levels loud enough to damage your hearing, have the neighbours banging on the walls and getting the family well and truly upset.

So the question remains, why focus on 90 dB/W sensitivity?

 

[John]

My 10 inch Tannoy System 1000’s are 96db.

 

[Tarzan]

Hello all,
According to the collective PFM wisdom, does a pair of good-looking, nominal 8 ohm and over 90db, stand-mounted, neutral sounding and not stupidly-priced speakers exist on the market today? It's like searching for a needle in a haystack. What about the poor folks who need to satisfy these criteria?
Seems I would have better luck spotting Nessie and taking a selfie with Bigfoot...

What is your budget?

Room size?

What is the rest of your kit?

What tunes do you listen to.

What sort of sound you looking for?

 

[RJohan]

Sorry, but this isn't true. Take a look at some ATC and PMC large studio style monitors, many of which might weigh 50Kg or there abouts, but are stand mounted for performance reasons. Examples include the ATC SCM 100 and PMC iB2SE

I own a pair of big JBL studio monitors (4331B). As I don't own a forklift they stay on the floor. And, trust me, when they new there where no stands supplied. The studios that where the main customer base very elaborately built their monitors into the wall of the control room, following practices developed by firms like Westlake.

 

[Tony L]

The listener sits far higher up in a studio, typically on an office swivel chair, and the monitors need to fire over a large mixing desk, computers, recorders, FX racks etc. It is a totally different environment to a home.

 

[RJohan]

The listener sits far higher up in a studio, typically on an office swivel chair, and the monitors need to fire over a large mixing desk, computers, recorders, FX racks etc. It is a totally different environment to a home.

Certainly!

Now, my 4331B's existed in a domestic version, L200B, that where supposed to be placed on the floor for proper loading of the bass.

 

[Timcat]

The listener sits far higher up in a studio, typically on an office swivel chair, and the monitors need to fire over a large mixing desk, computers, recorders, FX racks etc. It is a totally different environment to a home.

That's very true, but the two speakers I referred to are domestic versions of similar studio speakers and both are supplied with and intended for use with stands. I have have PMC iB2SEs in main system and they certainly don't work on the floor.

 

[tuga]

It's the same process that's led us to the horrid little Bluetooth, lifestyle abortions we have today. People are more concerned with style and convenience than the primary function of playing music.

Isn’t convenience the first requirement for playing music?
Or do we need wait ten minutes for our valve amplifier to get to temperature, get the turntable spinning and pull an LP out of it’s sleeve, zap it with the anti static gun and sit perfectly squared with the speakers?

A smartphone with Spotify and a Bluetooth speaker is as perfect a system as we’ve ever had.

 

[tuga]

The listener sits far higher up in a studio, typically on an office swivel chair, and the monitors need to fire over a large mixing desk, computers, recorders, FX racks etc. It is a totally different environment to a home.

And there’s also the all important mixing booth acoustics.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Isn’t convenience the first requirement for playing music?

What an odd question. Surely, convenience has to be a secondary consideration after, you know, actually delivering something suitably like the music. Not necessarily high end, or perhaps not even hifi (depending on context) but convenience isn’t the first question I’d be asking.

 

[Timcat]

I own a pair of big JBL studio monitors (4331B). As I don't own a forklift they stay on the floor. And, trust me, when they new there where no stands supplied. The studios that where the main customer base very elaborately built their monitors into the wall of the control room, following practices developed by firms like Westlake.

Yes, but the two speakers I mentioned are domestic versions of studio monitors and they are both supplied with stands. Forklift? No, but two middle aged men are required to lift them!

 

[tuga]

What an odd question. Surely, convenience has to be a secondary consideration after, you know, actually delivering something suitably like the music. Not necessarily high end, or perhaps not even hifi (depending on context) but convenience isn’t the first question I’d be asking.

My son has a small JBL speaker which is perfectly suitable. Sounds as good as my old Tivoli radio

 

[david ellwood]

I think it’s sensible to look at the system as a whole. If your current choice of amplifier limits your speaker options then change the amplifier.

Naims new range are really good , maybe give them an audition?

 

[Cesare]

And there’s also the all important mixing booth acoustics.

Sorry to drift this even further off topic, but acoustics are surprisingly irrelevant in control rooms - even when people used to try hard they generally sounded terrible, but these days I think there's even less effort put in. Control rooms are used these days for tracking, and a rough mix - this change happened with the move from analog mixing where access to the large console was paramount to mixing, to the modern 'in the box' approach where basically the product from the studio is a ProTools session with the tracks and various takes included, and the mix is generated within ProTools. The mix produced during recording is just there as a guide, and for everyone involved to hear it and know that they've caught the idea and the feel they want. The mix will need fettling, and this is the job of the mixing and mastering engineers. So the monitors in the control room are to hear what's been recorded, and to judge whether you need to capture more takes to get the source material for the recording.

The actual hard work of comping the tracks, fixing anything that's a bit dodgy, and then putting an exciting mix together is done in a much cheaper space - no point tying up a live room + console for this task, and this other space will be the treated one, and is less likely to have huge monitors and outboard gear. Ok, some mix and mastering engineers still use outboard gear, but the number doing this is maybe less than you'd think.