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Horns: Klipsch vs. Altec vs. JBL vs. ???

Indeed. Perish the thought.
I tend to shy away from all that as much as I can wherever it is. I dislike being told that such and such an approach is the only one. Experience tells me that in audio there are usually many often quite divergent paths to happiness and insolvency :)
Going SH is also a good way to avoid the patter. That said YL & ALE kit is seriously expensive even when it's old.
Will investigate the s/h Onkens, though. The worry with those is where will spares come from. How do you manage that with your Vitavox drivers, Murray?
 
I wasn't suggesting buying any of the exotic items as new. Too expensive!YL, Onken & Maxonic are all defunct companies and you'd need to ensure a supply of diaphragms before buying (as I thought I had with those Fostex's!)

The Vitavox spares issue is complicated but they are available. Its a long & interesting story! Funnily enough, I imagine there are plenty of Vvox spares in Japan from IMAI.
 
murray johnson said:
I wasn't suggesting buying any of the exotic items as new. Too expensive!YL, Onken & Maxonic are all defunct companies and you'd need to ensure a supply of diaphragms before buying (as I thought I had with those Fostex's!)
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YL drivers seem reasonably plentiful, although they ususally look like they've lived a life... I suspect spare parts availablity is not too bad for this brand (although maybe price is...). Don't think I've ever spotted a maxonic driver for sale, so heaven only knows what would happen when something goes wrong. OTOH, doesn't Shindo use field coils in his speakers? Someone still seems to be making this kind of driver.
Onken. Formidable reputation, formiddable cost even second hand, and still popular. I am interested. The 500s I spotted turned out to 5000s with a small bullet waveguide and are already taken. Is there any technical information available on Onken?
I must have said this before, but the Fostex Lab Series super tweeters look very interesting...
 
Markus Sauer said:
Careful. You're hyperventilating.
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Ooh you bitch. But I know that what you're really after is the pron. So here it is, the Onken 5000T in intimate close-up:

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Satisfied?
 
The 5000T's were what was on the french system along with I think some 455's. They did sound v good. It was a 4 way system with a massive lower mid WE style curved horn and a smaller 4 cell for upper mid. I don't recall what the other mid driver was, maybe another 455. The whole shooting match was about 2.5m high. Verdier TT,SME 3012, SPU and Jean Hiraga's amps.

I see EIFL have 5000T's (and 455's) in at the moment. ulp!

These are what I'd call serious tweeters!
 
joel said:
Ooh you bitch. But I know that what you're really after is the pron. So here it is, the Onken 5000T in intimate close-up: Satisfied?
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Joel,

There are very few people who heard the Onken 5000s. There is a minor myth about the 5000s that was invented by a known to me French guy. Interesting that the very same guy worships digital crossovers – would it be too difficult to predict what I might feel further? Also, my experience indicate that someone’s admiration of an item in audio NEVER brainfull unless the people indicated his reasoning. Also, to claim that a particular tweet is good without understanding that a tweeter as an integral part of the MF-HF tandem is a foolish things to do….

Anyhow, I did not have Onken 5000 or heard it. My Japanese sources asked a couple thousands for it and 5-6 years back when I was evaluating tweeters I decided do not go for it. I had a cheaper version of Onken that I picked on EBay for a few hundred bucks. It was not necessary bad it was no more interesting them many other Aniclo/aluminum driver of the same class. (Fostex 90A and top of the line Fostex)

Still I did not fine trios tweeters useful. You see, the Onken, Fostex, JBL, ALE, GOTO and many others make their tweeters according to the different pattern that I did not find wining, at least in context of integration with MF drivers of high transient capability. Those tweeters run with very high magnetic force in gap that makes them too stiff and not resilient. The aluminum cone is wonderful but only in 1.5T-1.8T, the stronger magnetic force in the gap makes then sound “different”, I would say harder, and I do not know why. Also, those tweeters all use deep horns with strong phase plug… and therefore then beam like hell, having very narrow radiation pattern. I hate narrow firing tweeters and I hardly ever listen music in the listening position. If you take those drivers, open up their back, reverse then 180 degree and will be using them as a high sensitively direct radiator then I feel it was more fruitful utilization of those drivers (I used it in past)

Still, I feel that none-metallic diaphragms is a direction to do or if you go metal then it should be copper cones. Try listening to none-metallic or copper and you will see that they are very different.

Rgs,
Romy the caT
 
murray johnson said:
I see EIFL have 5000T's (and 455's) in at the moment. ulp!
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At JPY250K and 200K respectively, they have a high ulp factor.

Welcome to PFM Romy.
So far this is just a wish list of HF drivers I would like to listen to before spending any money.
Romy The Cat said:
Still, I feel that none-metallic diaphragms is a direction to do or if you go metal then it should be copper cones. Try listening to none-metallic or copper and you will see that they are very different.
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I've seen your comments about the phenolic EV HF driver in your system and also the xover slopes you use. The T350 is not an expensive piece to find, and replacement diaphragms seem to be available.
My modest system is very different to yours and I will pick the driver that sounds best and (hopfeully) integrates easily with what I have.
Price and practicality are factors.
BTW, What drivers use copper diaphragms?
 
joel said:
I've seen your comments about the phenolic EV HF driver in your system and also the xover slopes you use. The T350 is not an expensive piece to find, and replacement diaphragms seem to be available.
My modest system is very different to yours and I will pick the driver that sounds best and (hopfeully) integrates easily with what I have.
Price and practicality are factors.
BTW, What drivers use copper diaphragms?
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Hm… it is where my problems with most of audio people lie: they think is term of the products ability to deliver own things instead of the product’s capacity to accomplish the user objectives. I think that it is unnecessary to listen many HF drivers without a clear visualization of what need to be done by a tweeter, or by the specific conceptual tweeter in context of the given installation. I really do not feel comfortable when people go to my room, listen something, find that they like it and then run to buy “the same” component or a solution. It NEVER worked for them because a playback, represents not juts a summation of audio elements but a composite view on “how sound might be reproduced”. I do not think that juts because my or somebody else was positively mentioned EV-T350 then people should buy it. It is very possible that you will be disappointed. It rather you own joinery to observe how HF sounds in playback systems and how they sound “live”. There is not such a think as ‘the driver that sounds best” but only the drivers that fulfill you own demand for sound architecturing.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat
 
Romy The Cat said:
Hm… it is where my problems with most of audio people lie: they think is term of the products ability to deliver own things instead of the product’s capacity to accomplish the user objectives.
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Hello Romy,
The end point is *exactly* I'm thinking about, and this is why I have not formed an opinion on these units before actually hearing them.
There are specific things the HF has to do in my system, but I need to discover which drivers come closest. Published specs and forum opinions are not good enough for basing a decision on - although they can be useful pointers (especially the specs - or lack of them).
Also, I have at best only very average hearing. Stuff lots of sudiophiles apparently hear passes me by completely. I guess I'm fairly easy to please in that sense.
 
Hi Markus

They look completely different. The Alnico magnet version looks like this.

2405a.jpg


The ceramic magnet version (2405H) looks like this

jbl2405h.jpg


another more revealing pic of some alnico ones

jblalnico.jpg


I think the alnico one sounds sweeter having listened to both. The ceramic one isn't terrible though.

the alnico ones seem to sell on ebay for anything between $300 per pair to perhaps $600/pr for mint 077's (the domestic version)
 
the middle ones are ceramic. the top and bottom ones are Alnico

Ceramic ones have an exposed ring of magnet showing.

The Alnico ones have a sort of cylindrical pot over everything
 
Greg Timbers claims that the old alnico magnets are no better and in many cases worse than their modern equivalent. Not sure if he would include the 2405 in that though.
 
Hi Merlin,

I'm sure he's not the only one that says that. It's not been my experience though. Comparing Lowther A type & C type drivers, 2405's, Vitavox S2 and S3, (all the same I believe except for the magnets) the Alnico ones have always sounded preferable to me. I'm not a Neodymium fan either but many people are.
 
Well I shall be swapping a 1500 AL in for the 1500 FE when I can get someone to give me a hand. I know that one sounds better!

I think Greg's point was that old alnico beat old ferrite but new ferrite and ceramic beat old alnico. New alnico beat the lot.
 
Is this for a subwoofer or main speakers? I've not kept up to speed with what you're using at the moment. I saw a pic a month or two back with some nice looking (43 series ?) monitors but I'm not sure they are still what you have. must...try...to...keep...up!
 
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