flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Robert.
Am I correct in thinkling that a Garrard was supplied without a plinth.
I like your idea for the LP12, thats our next project!
Andrew.
High Mass vs. Suspended decks
- Thread starter jackal2513
- Start date
Robert.
Am I correct in thinkling that a Garrard was supplied without a plinth.
I like your idea for the LP12, thats our next project!
Andrew.
clivem2
pfm Member
Methinks these are my decks being discussed....Garrard 301 and Trans-Fi Salvation. To be pedantic the 301 does not rumble BUT I am convinced there are motor harmonics / extraneous noise that give the deck it's signature of powerful bass and veiled treble. I control this signature with a phono stage I've tweaked to sound slightly lean in the bass and a little bright. The 301 still retains great qualities but is closer to a neutral tonal balance. The Salvation however significantly bests it.
simonbrown
The Dogfather
I rather suspect you could get either of these from any starting point, depending on the solution you took to particular elements of the design.
For what it's worth my (idler) PTP Lenco slate plinth project does both of these to my ears, depending on what music is on ... hmmm. Most of those who soup up vintage turntables tend to the valve/fullrange end of the spectrum. For me the crisp, dynamic, detailed and driving sound you get from a well sorted Lenco is inherently well suited to the Naimy solid state amplification I have. Well it suits me, anyway
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Ah, thanks.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Didn't think it would be Rob to catch the 'generalisation' humour...
I'd lay good money on a 301 or 401 in as new condition having more rumble, measured at the stylus, than any SME, LP12 variant, or pretty much any other none direct coupled deck of similar quality and broadly similar platter weight.
You can't get away from the constraints of motor-idler-platter direct coupling. If all i was interested in was minimal noise transmission from motor to stylus then an idler would be last on the list, just like suspended sub-chassis would be last on my list for speed stability and non suspended would be last on my list for independence from room effects.
There's no free lunch here. I was party to YNWAN floating his LP12 bearing magnetically for the first time and have heard his deck with and without the mag-lev several times. The Linn bearing is given as -72db, yet floating the bearing was clearly audible in terms of enhanced low level resolution- there's rumble, and then there's 'rumble'...
I'd lay good money on a 301 or 401 in as new condition having more rumble, measured at the stylus, than any SME, LP12 variant, or pretty much any other none direct coupled deck of similar quality and broadly similar platter weight.
You can't get away from the constraints of motor-idler-platter direct coupling. If all i was interested in was minimal noise transmission from motor to stylus then an idler would be last on the list, just like suspended sub-chassis would be last on my list for speed stability and non suspended would be last on my list for independence from room effects.
There's no free lunch here. I was party to YNWAN floating his LP12 bearing magnetically for the first time and have heard his deck with and without the mag-lev several times. The Linn bearing is given as -72db, yet floating the bearing was clearly audible in terms of enhanced low level resolution- there's rumble, and then there's 'rumble'...
Robert
Tapehead
It was, and so was the LP12 originally, at least as an option for pro use.
However neither were sold for use that way and that is my point. You need to consider the sum of the parts.
Next project sounds interesting - sort of kit version LP12
jackal2513
pfm Member
Why does the LP12 sound kind of over-rhythmical with this sense of imposed forward thrust ? It's a real hook and definitely involving and shows you the tune quite ruthlessley but I wouldn't want to live with it for too long.
The one I have here is very lean and bright as well. I was expecting warm bass boom or does the cirkus get rid of that ?
The one I have here is very lean and bright as well. I was expecting warm bass boom or does the cirkus get rid of that ?
Robert
Tapehead
You need to measure at the output - not the stylus. You don't amplify at the stylus, you amplify what leaves the TT via the interconnect.
The measurement will be done with the Garrard plinthed, since the Garrard is just a motor unit and cannot even accept an arm without a plinth.
It might well measure worse than the decks you mention but at least understand what you measuring.
Ok what effect apart from hearing "rumble" via the speakers , does rumble have , does it mask other parts of the audio spectrum because its making the TT vibrate and therefore "rattling" the system , tt/arm/cartridge.
By the way I am a NAS Hyperspace user , its sited so that the sound within the room has minimal effect , its behind an alcove and 12 feet from the speakers .
By the way I am a NAS Hyperspace user , its sited so that the sound within the room has minimal effect , its behind an alcove and 12 feet from the speakers .
Robert
Tapehead
They all sound very different because they are different.
Ignore the rectangular arm board, the nice pretty wood plinth and familiar looking platter. What connects these parts and drives this TT has changed markedly and repeatedly over the years. There are many LP12s!
The characteristic older Linn sound certainly exists IMO but it is, typically, overplayed and overhyped. It is a trait, a modest deviation from what could be regarded as neutral.
Robert
Tapehead
Well worth looking at Jon and an important question IMO.
Probably need to devise some testing though, some measurements but unfortunately the anti measurement lobby will either A- run a mile, or B - dismiss them because measurements tend to contradict their biases.
I'd certainly like to see this though.
Without it we just get, he thinks and she thinks and he said, etc.
Gets us nowhere at all.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
I am more than willing, if Mr Ribee ESQ is OK with it, to hold an extended recording and listening session at my gaff. Perhaps we can get some opinions and measurements about why wobbly and solid decks sounds like they do, or perhaps we wont!
clivem2
pfm Member
Let's get away from the term rumble (even in "") as decently setup Garrards don't rumble but I fully expect motor noise to be present when measured, ok I'm being pedantic but very few Garrards I've heard directly exhibit rumble....however I believe their sound is tailored by motor noise.
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
Sorry if I misrepresented your views Clive - that was not my intention.
_____________________
Yes, I agree; the deck must be considered as a whole. It was not my intention to imply the contribution of the plinth should be ignored.
_____________________
Yes, I agree; the deck must be considered as a whole. It was not my intention to imply the contribution of the plinth should be ignored.
John
Rack’em Up!
The motors in some of these idler decks look massive from what I've seen, being directly coupled to the platter I can't imagine there's not vibration being passed onto the platter. The vibrating platter would then affect the waveform in the groove. Hearing it as rumble through the speakers would be a bit extreme but does not mean there is no adverse affect to the waveform or music being reproduced.
clivem2
pfm Member
No problem mate, it's more of a subtle unintended skew.....after all what is rumble and what is motor noise? They can be the same thing in that motor noise can sound like a rumble in some circumstances.
Yes its a bit vague , lets call it "mechanical system noise" , ie its all the noise from bearings , pulleys , belts , idlers etc that manifest as vibration detected at the Stylus.
I have records that have rumble recorded on them by the cutter and some that have that breathing sound , I think thats the vinyl.
I have records that have rumble recorded on them by the cutter and some that have that breathing sound , I think thats the vinyl.
That sounds interesting Andrew, I'm not far away and I'll happily run the Garrard over if it suits. It might even spur me into finishing the thing off (heaven forbid) rather than just playing records on it.
(In my defence I did get round to finishing the woodwork on the plinth and I HAVE recently bought some varnish to finish it. Erm, that said, the earth wire is still just twisted together, and it does still have "top front" pencilled on the left corner of the plinth, still not removed.)
Give me a call anyway if you want to try the 401!