European Parliament elections

[jackbarron]

Jack

 

[ff1d1l]

Wow, that didn’t take long. I wonder if it’s AI making the memes now.

Joe

 

[Seanm]

Go on...

What I'm saying is it's not obvious, although it will be presented as such by both sides.

 

[Tony L]

What I'm saying is it's not obvious, although it will be presented as such by both sides.

Though do you not think a wiser approach might have been to take a firm principled stand stating what they actually felt about the economic and social consequences of Brexit rather than trying to tap-dance around a clearly flawed referendum? This for me is the reason both main parties have clearly failed and are losing ground on this issue.

 

[Joe]

I do hope this milkshake business becomes a national trend

As long as it is fairly distributed across the political spectrum.

No, I’m happy settling on targeting right wing douchebags and entitled old white men in suits.

My general rule of thumb is... if you change the target is it still alright ? ...if it is not then it was not ...if you see what I mean?

If some group start targeting lesbians and gays ( say ) with milkshake bombs is that ok ? ....if it is not then it was not ok to do it to anyone else.

Violence ( for that is what it is ) begets violence.

Not acceptable in my world.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

My general rule of thumb is... if you change the target is it still alright...if it is not then it was not ...if you see what I mean?

If some group start targeting lesbians and gays ( say ) with milkshake bombs is that ok ? ....if it is not then it was not ok to do it to anyone else.

Violence ( for that is what it is ) begets violence.

Not acceptable in my world.

Anna Soubry was arguing from a similar perspective on PM this evening. I have to say, her opponent, Zoe Williams, was unconvincing in making her case. I started out from a position closer to Williams than Soubry, but moved away from that as the debate ground on.

 

[Marchbanks]

What I'm saying is it's not obvious, although it will be presented as such by both sides.

Ah, right. Not what I was expecting then - something along the lines of ‘if we are going to be thrashed by both Hard Brexit and Remain parties (as Remain means keeping the status quo I don’t see how it can come in a variety of consistencies) then obviously we should stop being Soft Brexit (which no-one likes) and invade one of the others’ territories, only be a bigger, bolder and brasher version. But which way to go? Perhaps let the PLP decide? Or perhaps the party members? Or perhaps (sharp intake of breath) do what you think is best for the country. And say so, when you are accused of being cynical and opportunistic.

But I misunderstood.

 

[Tony L]

Anna Soubry was arguing from a similar perspective on PM this evening. I have to say, her opponent, Zoe Williams, was unconvincing in making her case. I started out from a position closer to Williams than Soubry, but moved away from that as the debate ground on.

I’m in two minds on this. I accept the non-violent argument, but I do view the far-right and their nationalism and xenophobia as an extremist virus that needs fighting. I grew up in the ‘70s and ‘80s and folk never had the slightest issue in lobbing far worse than milkshakes at the NF. I see it as resistance, and throwing eggs, tomatoes, milkshakes etc is pretty lightweight in the grand scheme of things and something that also has a very long history in the world of political protest (eggs and tomatoes anyway). Far better that than the bricks, bottles and arson Yaxley-Lennon’s shower of thugmorons try to bring to our Asian/Muslim areas.

I view someone applying a decorative milkshake to a xenophobic multi-millionaire con-artist as infinitely less disturbing than say the rape threats etc Jess Philips has had to put up from UKIP thugs or the utterly vile racism Diane Abbott faces on a daily basis. Maybe if we didn’t live in a society that actually tolerates and platforms this kind of bigotry folk would just drink their milkshakes?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Soubry’s view was (I paraphrase) that if you condone an antisocial act you make it harder to condemn other antisocial acts such as abusive language and rape threats. It’s a ‘thin end of the wedge’ argument. She quoted Michelle Obama’s ‘when they go low, we go high’.

 

[Enfield boy]

Not the usual (ex)tory, when they go low, we starve them, then?

 

[Tony L]

Soubry’s view was (I paraphrase) that if you condone an antisocial act you make it harder to condemn other antisocial acts such as abusive language and rape threats. It’s a ‘thin end of the wedge’ argument. She quoted Michelle Obama’s ‘when they go low, we go high’.

She is unquestionably right, though still I struggle with it! I was programmed to fight fascism from a teenager growing up on new-wave, two-tone, reggae etc. I accept I’m wrong, but I’m probably not big enough not to want to throw the milkshake at these vile arseholes!

 

[HarryB]

Well, the law of averages must mean that Corbyn eventually wins an election. Doesn't it?

Yeah' he'll win the General Election. The one that matters.

 

[Nick_G]

She is unquestionably right, though still I struggle with it! I was programmed to fight fascism from a teenager growing up on new-wave, two-tone, reggae etc. I accept I’m wrong, but I’m probably not big enough not to want to throw the milkshake at these vile arseholes!

Sour milk, not milkshake!

 

[lordsummit]

This is obviously the way to do it:

 

[Seanm]

But which way to go? Perhaps let the PLP decide? Or perhaps the party members? Or perhaps (sharp intake of breath) do what you think is best for the country. And say so, when you are accused of being cynical and opportunistic.

Or let all of them decide, together, at some kind of national conference? And stick to that decision, even if it attracts accusations of sophistry from people who are convinced the matter is still simply one of in or out, despite the referendum?

There are no easy answers and anyone who claims there is is being cynical and opportunistic.

 

[Marchbanks]

Or let all of them decide, together, at some kind of national conference? And stick to that decision, even if it attracts accusations of sophistry from people who are convinced the matter is still simply one of in or out, despite the referendum?

Why not? But if you are suggesting the next party conference, I think that might be too late.

 

[Swamp Thing]

You misunderstand, Labour's overwhelmingly decisive position on Brexit has reached now reached stage where "Corbyn has insisted a second Brexit referendum would not be "disastrous". I mean you can't get much more emphatic than that!

Ah!

I understand that Things can only get better has been replaced by random tracks from Definitely Maybe.

 

[sean99]

She quoted Michelle Obama’s ‘when they go low, we go high’.

Hmm - how did that work out for the Democrats in 2016 ?

I can see both sides of this. Lobbing milkshakes is a satisfying, but unfortunately futile gesture. However, until the Labour party pulls the fence out of its behind it's all we have.

 

[Nick_G]

Nigel Farage, the man of the Paypal.

 

[gassor]

Or let all of them decide, together, at some kind of national conference? And stick to that decision, even if it attracts accusations of sophistry from people who are convinced the matter is still simply one of in or out, despite the referendum?

There are no easy answers and anyone who claims there is is being cynical and opportunistic.

One reason that Labour is not doing too well at present is that it is seen to be sitting on the fence and lacking a clear message over Brexit. The solution you are suggesting is for even more sitting on the fence and lack of clarity. If the leadership is incapable of coming up with a strategy it is not up to Labour supporters to provide one (as if that could work), but for the leadership to be replaced by more competent people who can find a way forward.