European Parliament elections

[Swamp Thing]

When I think of how many people from the UK with a non-white skin colour, and how many people in the UK originally from countries other than those of the UK, have been scared, abused, threatened and in some cases assaulted because of the hatred and xenophobia promoted and tacitly encourage by Farage and his cronies - then I feel the odd milkshake is entirely reasonable.

 

[Lee T]

I’m in two minds on this. I accept the non-violent argument, but I do view the far-right and their nationalism and xenophobia as an extremist virus that needs fighting. I grew up in the ‘70s and ‘80s and folk never had the slightest issue in lobbing far worse than milkshakes at the NF. I see it as resistance, and throwing eggs, tomatoes, milkshakes etc is pretty lightweight in the grand scheme of things and something that also has a very long history in the world of political protest (eggs and tomatoes anyway). Far better that than the bricks, bottles and arson Yaxley-Lennon’s shower of thugmorons try to bring to our Asian/Muslim areas.

I view someone applying a decorative milkshake to a xenophobic multi-millionaire con-artist as infinitely less disturbing than say the rape threats etc Jess Philips has had to put up from UKIP thugs or the utterly vile racism Diane Abbott faces on a daily basis. Maybe if we didn’t live in a society that actually tolerates and platforms this kind of bigotry folk would just drink their milkshakes?

Educating the ignorant will always win out over violent acts, however trivial.

No person, be they politician or anyone else should be treated this way by someone who disagrees with their views.

 

[Marchbanks]

You misunderstand, Labour's overwhelmingly decisive position on Brexit has reached now reached stage where "Corbyn has insisted a second Brexit referendum would not be "disastrous". I mean you can't get much more emphatic than that!

I had assumed that the possibility of Labour seeking a second referendum had now gone away since one of the criteria for not doing so - ‘a changed Tory deal’ - was confirmed by Tezza in one of the Sunday rags.

 

[Seanm]

One reason that Labour is not doing too well at present is that it is seen to be sitting on the fence and lacking a clear message over Brexit. The solution you are suggesting is for even more sitting on the fence and lack of clarity. If the leadership is incapable of coming up with a strategy it is not up to Labour supporters to provide one (as if that could work), but for the leadership to be replaced by more competent people who can find a way forward.

That's the existing strategy, as decided at conference by members, MPs and the leadership. It is IMO still the best strategy: I haven't heard an alternative that takes account of the basic reality of the situation, which is that any party that wants to govern has to build consensus, on various levels, and that Brexit has opened up several political divisions, and not just one. A different leadership is unlikely to come up with a better strategy: those who wanted a drastically different one have left the party - and shown themselves up as the politically incompetent clowns that members knew them to be, rather than the dynamic realists the media told them they were. Everyone else basically knows where this is going, and no-one has the support to either hurry it along or stop it.

 

[claire.foxx]

My general rule of thumb is... if you change the target is it still alright...if it is not then it was not ...if you see what I mean?

If some group start targeting lesbians and gays ( say ) with milkshake bombs is that ok ? ....if it is not then it was not ok to do it to anyone else.

Violence ( for that is what it is ) begets violence.

Not acceptable in my world.

Check your privilege for a second. For starters drawing equivalence with Farage and LGBT people is pretty disgusting. For the record right wing groups groups do target gays and lesbians and trans ppl not with milkshake bombs but with knives, acid and bleach, every day. It’s a risk most people don’t think about when they are comfy and all cosy with nothing to gain from protest.

It is not equivalent to equate oppressed groups fighting oppressors with oppressors who wish to harm the oppressed.

Violence: fighting back at people in positions of power and authority over the powerless is sometimes the only way to get shit done, If there were no riots at stonewall with trans girls throwing bricks (and not milkshakes) at cops, there would be no LGBT rights, no changes to the law. Violent kickback at what are effectively class traitors, in this case the bad-donut cops, did start changes I enjoy and intend upholding.

Throwing that milkshake is only violence if you have very little to be hurt by these people gaining traction. I see it as a kickback at a racist, homophobic ****er who now has a slightly higher dry cleaning bill this week. He can afford it. If punching Nazis is ok then throwing milkshakes at people like Farage (and the rape-fantasist UKIP guy earlier) is fine too... it is a clear message saying “**** off you are not welcome here.”

 

[Swamp Thing]

You go girl.

 

[Lee T]

Check your privilege for a second. For starters drawing equivalence with Farage and LGBT people is pretty disgusting. For the record right wing groups groups do target gays and lesbians and trans ppl not with milkshake bombs but with knives, acid and bleach, every day. It’s a risk most people don’t think about when they are comfy and all cosy with nothing to gain from protest.

It is not equivalent to equate oppressed groups fighting oppressors with oppressors who wish to harm the oppressed.

Violence: fighting back at people in positions of power and authority over the powerless is sometimes the only way to get shit done, If there were no riots at stonewall with trans girls throwing bricks (and not milkshakes) at cops, there would be no LGBT rights, no changes to the law. Violent kickback at what are effectively class traitors, in this case the bad-donut cops, did start changes I enjoy and intend upholding.

Throwing that milkshake is only violence if you have very little to be hurt by these people gaining traction. I see it as a kickback at a racist, homophobic ****er who now has a slightly higher dry cleaning bill this week. He can afford it. If punching Nazis is ok then throwing milkshakes at people like Farage (and the rape-fantasist UKIP guy earlier) is fine too... it is a clear message saying “**** off you are not welcome here.”

Sorry but this is utter bollocks & anyone liking such a post need their heads examined.
Stating violence has created LGBT laws is an insult to those who fought through legal means for their rights.
Violence is no answer to right wing racism or bigotry. Education is why we are where we are re LGBT.

 

[Tony L]

Get your ‘The Revolution Will Be Pasteurised’ t-shirts here!

PS Amusing related NewsThump too.

 

[gassor]

That's the existing strategy, as decided at conference by members, MPs and the leadership. It is IMO still the best strategy: I haven't heard an alternative that takes account of the basic reality of the situation, which is that any party that wants to govern has to build consensus, on various levels, and that Brexit has opened up several political divisions, and not just one. A different leadership is unlikely to come up with a better strategy: those who wanted a drastically different one have left the party - and shown themselves up as the politically incompetent clowns that members knew them to be, rather than the dynamic realists the media told them they were. Everyone else basically knows where this is going, and no-one has the support to either hurry it along or stop it.

So the current Labour strategy is still the best apart from the minor little detail of taking on the Brexit party where it is completely ineffective? The party has manoeuvred itself into a political cul-de-sac in which a puny politician like Farage is going to wipe the floor with Labour and no-one wants to admit the most incompetent clowns are not the ones guiding the Change party, but much closer to home.

 

[Seanm]

So the current Labour strategy is still the best apart from the minor little detail of taking on the Brexit party where it is completely ineffective? The party has manoeuvred itself into a political cul-de-sac in which a puny politician like Farage is going to wipe the floor with Labour and no-one wants to admit the most incompetent clowns are not the ones guiding the Change party, but much closer to home.

What are you suggesting gassor? Maybe a bit of the old "addressing legitimate concerns" about immigration, to see off Farage? I remember that was your original line of attack: any competent leader could have seen that that was the way to go!

 

[tuga]

Education is why we are where we are re LGBT.

The rise of populist politicians and of nationalism un peu partout does question whether our faith in education shouldn't be re-evaluated, does it not?

 

[gassor]

What are you suggesting gassor? Maybe a bit of the old "addressing legitimate concerns" about immigration, to see off Farage? I remember that was your original line of attack: any competent leader could have seen that that was the way to go!

Sean, my view (if you remember) was that immigration concerns could be tackled head-on ie by arguing for the benefits, but that wasn't on my mind at all. It was more along the lines of how an organisation deals with incompetent leadership, clue; it is not to get ordinary members to work out the way forward, there are people paid to do that sort of thing. I suppose it all depends on whether you are happy to have Labour getting slaughtered in elections or whether you think they should be trying to become the government. If it is the latter then the party need to make drastic changes to its current way of thinking and that means the leadership have to go. All you seem to be saying is 'que sera, sera' the party cannot take a decisive stand on the issue because of the problems of building a consensus. That's hardly going to get the punters rushing out to the polling booths to put an X beside the Labour candidate.

A big issue for me is that whatever strategy Corbyn and co come up with to oppose Farage with (if anything at all) will be too little, too late. The time for a clear strategy has probably passed. I'm not optimistic about what state Labour will be in 10 years hence.

 

[ff1d1l]

What are you suggesting gassor? Maybe a bit of the old "addressing legitimate concerns" about immigration, to see off Farage? I remember that was your original line of attack: any competent leader could have seen that that was the way to go!

It's very simple.
Labour - get someone to lead with a fvcking clue, because you are close to being history.
Take notice of your membership, because you are close to being history.
Take notice of polls - one or two percent wrong is possible, beyond that and you are King Knut talking percentages on the tide coming in or not. You need to take notice of this, because you are close to being history.

Admitting the above is the first step towards addressing them.

And seanm - surfaces which reflect no light are perceived as black, those that reflect all visible wavelengths are perceived as white. Arguing the contrary, while entertaining at first in a hey-just-listen-to-the-crap-that-flat-earther-is-coming-out-with kind of way, all too soon morphs into that no mans land between boring and stupid.

 

[ff1d1l]

Must be a great campaign Nige, you're been given a bukshee milkshake. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...hit-by-a-milkshake-in-newcastle-a4146721.html

Mr Crowther, from Throckley, Newcastle, said it was a £5.25 Five Guys banana and salted caramel milkshake.

He explained: "It's a right of protest against people like him.

"The bile and the racism he spouts out in this country is far more damaging than a bit of milkshake to his front."

As Mr Farage was being led away from the scene, a number of onlookers burst into shrieking laughter.

Jack

 

[flatpopely]

Check your privilege for a second. For starters drawing equivalence with Farage and LGBT people is pretty disgusting. For the record right wing groups groups do target gays and lesbians and trans ppl not with milkshake bombs but with knives, acid and bleach, every day. It’s a risk most people don’t think about when they are comfy and all cosy with nothing to gain from protest.

It is not equivalent to equate oppressed groups fighting oppressors with oppressors who wish to harm the oppressed.

Violence: fighting back at people in positions of power and authority over the powerless is sometimes the only way to get shit done, If there were no riots at stonewall with trans girls throwing bricks (and not milkshakes) at cops, there would be no LGBT rights, no changes to the law. Violent kickback at what are effectively class traitors, in this case the bad-donut cops, did start changes I enjoy and intend upholding.

Throwing that milkshake is only violence if you have very little to be hurt by these people gaining traction. I see it as a kickback at a racist, homophobic ****er who now has a slightly higher dry cleaning bill this week. He can afford it. If punching Nazis is ok then throwing milkshakes at people like Farage (and the rape-fantasist UKIP guy earlier) is fine too... it is a clear message saying “**** off you are not welcome here.”

Claire, what is your opening statement of “check your privilege for a second” supposed to mean?

 

[Seanm]

Sean, my view (if you remember) was that immigration concerns could be tackled head-on ie by arguing for the benefits, but that wasn't on my mind at all. It was more along the lines of how an organisation deals with incompetent leadership, clue; it is not to get ordinary members to work out the way forward, there are people paid to do that sort of thing. I suppose it all depends on whether you are happy to have Labour getting slaughtered in elections or whether you think they should be trying to become the government. If it is the latter then the party need to make drastic changes to its current way of thinking and that means the leadership have to go. All you seem to be saying is 'que sera, sera' the party cannot take a decisive stand on the issue because of the problems of building a consensus. That's hardly going to get the punters rushing out to the polling booths to put an X beside the Labour candidate.

A big issue for me is that whatever strategy Corbyn and co come up with to oppose Farage with (if anything at all) will be too little, too late. The time for a clear strategy has probably passed. I'm not optimistic about what state Labour will be in 10 years hence.

That's not how I remember your immigration chat pre the 2017 GE, and since: "tackling the issue head on" was much more about having debates about whether multiculturalism had failed, and whether immigrants should have jobs before coming here, which isn't arguing for the benefits at all, it's asking leading questions about how great do people think these perfectly legitimate BNP ideas are, on a scale of 1-10.

But regarding the larger point about leadership, all I have are questions: Who? Given that (remaining) centrist heartthrobs like Starmer and Cooper are on board with the current strategy. And what might the alternative strategy be? You might say, "That's for the new leader to decide!" But if you don't have either a leader in mind or an idea about what they might do I'd have to call the whole thing wishful thinking. As for dismissing the current strategy because ordinary members were involved in formulating it...we just have different ideas about what politics is about and if that's your honest view of the grassroots I can see why you've invested so much in (antipathy towards) Corbyn. But no magic leader is going to step in to solve this problem.

 

[Tim Jones]

I'm not sure how a "strategy", however subtly expressed, which loses your party votes can be a good strategy. But that's just my usual naivete I guess.

 

[Brian]

I'm not sure how a "strategy", however subtly expressed, which loses your party votes can be a good strategy. But that's just my usual naivete I guess.

I’m not sure how a “strategy” of calling a referendum to save the party, running away when the result isn’t what you wanted then spending 3 years to come up with the worst “deal” ever, losing votes in parliament by the greatest numbers ever along the way can be seen as a good strategy. This on top of 9 years of country ruining policies and it actually all looks a bad strategy to me. To tories and their enablers, trashing the economy for all but the very well off is probably all good stuff, though. So just my usual naivete, I guess.

 

[farfromthesun]

I do hope this milkshake business becomes a national trend

I don't. My 10 year old daughter is an anaphylactic dairy allergy sufferer and I categorically do not want this to become a thing. Kids are impressionable, see something that they think is funny and that people appear to condone and then they'll start doing it themselves, to each other when they're having a scrap, or when they want to bully someone. Remember how the "you've been Tangoed" thing kicked off?

This all started because the guy who did it to Yaxley-Lennon had it in his hand whilst being accosted. I guess it's perpetuated because people think it's funny to see people covered in this white stuff. Perhaps it's a little symbolic but it's also a bit cowardly aswell. These people want to protest against the right but they're not quite brave enough to just walk up to them and lay them out (you're being arrested and charged with assault anyway); the milkshake is really just an easy option. When push comes to shove, these right wing hooligans would beat people seriously with bats, or pipes, or whatever so I think that people should be thinking very carefully about whether they want to spend a month in hospital after getting their heads kicked in for throwing a drink at someone. If you're not prepared to take it to that kind of level, then you should just be protesting peacefully, and not adding to a the cyclic perpetuation of attack / retaliation.

 

[claire.foxx]

Claire, what is your opening statement of “check your privilege for a second” supposed to mean?

https://www.nationalseedproject.org/Key-SEED-Texts/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack