E scooters

[Woodface]

I used to be a bit sniffy about e-bikes but I now think they are a great option for those wanting to get fit from a lowish base. Apologies if that sounds patronising but I doubt there were many people less fit than I when I took to cycling at the age of 39. Within a couple of years I had lost around 3 stone in weight & dropped 5-6 inches off my waist.

I am pretty determined when it comes to exercise but that is not the case for everyone.

One of our key health issues in this country is an obesity epidemic, one of the best ways to tackle this is to get our population more active. Our love affair with the motor car needs to become more distant; this will also help the environment.

The usual snippy comments about a handful of teenagers causing ‘mayhem’ is so insignificant compared to the continued damage caused by motor vehicles. Where is the similar level of outrage about the number of pedestrian deaths caused by motorists?

We need more green transport solutions, the kind of people this offends are not really who I would wish to be associated with.

 

[gavreid]

The battery will have an order of magnitude lower mass than many riders. The most popular e-scooters are a similar weight to a normal mountain bike, around 1/2 the weight of a sack of spuds.

Relative to a car or motorbike, it's insignificant, I know which I'm more likely to survive an impact with.

You're talking sh1t mate - actually it's two bags of spuds with a nutter on top

"the Bicycle Association had recommended a maximum weight of 20kg (44lb). But the government had approved more than twice that - 55kg - to accommodate bigger batteries and lower the cost of constant recharging by the commercial operator."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253194

 

[Andrew C!]

Everyone's focussing on the speed limit alone. That's irrelevant, a feather hitting you full in the face at 15 mph doesn't hurt. The issue is the weight of the thing with its oversized battery - it's really a full sized sack of spuds with an idiot on top hitting you in the face - that's a whole diffent story. Couple that with near silence, poor road infrastructure and heavy traffic etc etc

Perhaps not explained adequately enough in my previous post, but my inference is that at least some knowledge of the relevant conventions of riding/driving on a road or pavement need to be recognised by the hirer of these machines.

The use of helmets and gloves is another consideration, but in that context I'm talking common sense to most on this thread in this regard - but that wont be sheared by the wider public.

When my local gym was open, I used to see a former colleague, who received life altering injuries(see article). I used to supervise Diederik. Lovely bloke. Tenacious cop. His life in effect taken away by shite driving. And Diederik was a very competent cyclist.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-19757901

 

[Woodface]

Perhaps not explained adequately enough in my previous post, but my inference is that at least some knowledge of the relevant conventions of riding/driving on a road or pavement need to be recognised by the hirer of these machines.

The use of helmets and gloves is another consideration, but in that context I'm talking common sense to most on this thread in this regard - but that wont be sheared by the wider public.

When my local gym was open, I used to see a former colleague, who received life altering injuries(see article). I used to supervise Diederik. Lovely bloke. Tenacious cop. His life in effect taken away by shite driving. And Diederik was a very competent cyclist.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-19757901

Just to be clear my earlier post was not aimed at anyone specific & definitely not your good self.

Do you think the emphasis should be on driver awareness rather than demonising every form of ‘new’ transport?

 

[gavreid]

Perhaps not explained adequately enough in my previous post, but my inference is that at least some knowledge of the relevant conventions of riding/driving on a road or pavement need to be recognised by the hirer of these machines.

The use of helmets and gloves is another consideration, but in that context I'm talking common sense to most on this thread in this regard - but that wont be sheared by the wider public.

When my local gym was open, I used to see a former colleague, who received life altering injuries(see article). I used to supervise Diederik. Lovely bloke. Tenacious cop. His life in effect taken away by shite driving. And Diederik was a very competent cyclist.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-19757901

Just so - people will be up and down curbs at random. 55kg seems like an awful lot to me - too heavy to handle for most folk and certainly limb snapping. The centre of mass is very low, which will 'suck' it underneath a vehicle in a collision

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

You're talking sh1t mate - actually it's two bags of spuds with a nutter on top

"the Bicycle Association had recommended a maximum weight of 20kg (44lb). But the government had approved more than twice that - 55kg - to accommodate bigger batteries and lower the cost of constant recharging by the commercial operator."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253194

If by 'sh1t' you mean 'evidence based on fact', then I think you've been mislead

You realise there's a difference between a scooter that doesn't exist and one that does? The e-scooters people are riding (illegally) usually weigh around 12-14kg (see Xioami M365 / 365pro). The hire ones are heavier, but around 20kg (see Lime).

Yes the law may have approved a higher maximum weight but it's still lower than cars and motorbikes and they don't appear to exist yet, AFAICT.

 

[Mike Reed]

Legal E bikes motors only supply power when the pedals are turning.

Interesting,; maybe the law has changed. The 200cc electric bike I bought 15 years ago and used for 6/7 years was legal as is. Although advisable to start off pedalling, on a slight decline (like outside my house, e.g.) pedalling simply wasn't necessary. One going, it was only on steep hills that pedals came into it. Great little Chinese bike which achieved over 30 downhill (but nearer 15 on the level).

 

[Andrew C!]

Do you think the emphasis should be on driver awareness rather than demonising every form of ‘new’ transport?

I think the ethos of greener transport is very wise. I'm looking at going electric for my next motor - but am wery aware that electricity still has to come from somewhere, of course! I think the common sense use of any vehicles ie bikes/cars/etc has been influenced by the 'I can do what I like and be really selfish, and f**k everyone else' attitude we have in our society. Controversial, but traffic law is one element of our legislation that, when you fully understand it, is very easy to enforce. Not all officers do understand it, tho.

Just so - people will be up and down curbs at random. 55kg seems like an awful lot to me - too heavy to handle for most folk and certainly limb snapping.

Yes - that weight takes it way above my MTB weight, for example - and tramming along at a measly 16 mph I'm all too aware of the consequences of a collision happening for whatever reason. Properly fitting helmet and full gloves a minimum, for me.

 

[Woodface]

You realise there's a difference between a scooter that doesn't exist and one that does? The e-scooters people are riding (illegally) usually weigh around 12-14kg (see Xioami M365 / 365pro). The hire ones are heavier, but around 20kg (see Lime).

Yes the law may have approved a higher maximum weight but it's still lower than cars and motorbikes and they don't appear to exist yet, AFAICT.

Amazing how people go all ‘Daily Mail’ on this issue?

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

Interesting,; maybe the law has changed. The 200cc electric bike I bought 15 years ago and used for 6/7 years was legal as is. Although advisable to start off pedalling, on a slight decline (like outside my house, e.g.) pedalling simply wasn't necessary. One going, it was only on steep hills that pedals came into it. Great little Chinese bike which achieved over 30 downhill (but nearer 15 on the level).

Up until Jan 2016 you could have full throttle assistance up to the legal max of 25km/h. Now you can have throttle up to 6km/h

 

[Woodface]

Having another look at this, you need a driving license (or at least a provisional one) to hire one & be over 18. This is the same requirement as driving a car, are they more or less dangerous than a car?

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

I think the ethos of greener transport is very wise. I'm looking at going electric for my next motor - but am wery aware that electricity still has to come from somewhere, of course! I think the common sense use of any vehicles ie bikes/cars/etc has been influenced by the 'I can do what I like and be really selfish, and f**k everyone else' attitude we have in our society. Controversial, but traffic law is one element of our legislation that, when you fully understand it, is very easy to enforce. Not all officers do understand it, tho.

Yes - that weight takes it way above my MTB weight, for example - and tramming along at a measly 16 mph I'm all too aware of the consequences of a collision happening for whatever reason. Properly fitting helmet and full gloves a minimum, for me.

1. You may be surprised about the source of your electricity, especially in the UK, worth researching and especially understanding the changes over time, even during the period you own the car.

2. Agree about weight, as I've grown older my awareness for the effects of falling of a normal cycle at 15 to 30mph has been heightened, along with the fact that brakes may not be as effective as I need too! Like good driving the old 'what you can see, what you can't see and what you can reasonably expect to happen' is deeply ingrained!

 

[Andrew C!]

nteresting,; maybe the law has changed. The 200cc electric bike I bought 15 years ago and used for 6/7 years was legal as is.

A couple of questions, If I may:
What category of motor bike license did you hold at that time?
When the bike as purchased, what conditions were given with it regarding its use?

If its an electric bycicle, they are exempt from this topic, as they have separate means of propelling them.

 

[gavreid]

If by 'sh1t' you mean 'evidence based on fact', then I think you've been mislead

You realise there's a difference between a scooter that doesn't exist and one that does? The e-scooters people are riding (illegally) usually weigh around 12-14kg (see Xioami M365 / 365pro). The hire ones are heavier, but around 20kg (see Lime).

Yes the law may have approved a higher maximum weight but it's still lower than cars and motorbikes and they don't appear to exist yet, AFAICT.

You were unaware of the weight being allowed for these scooters and you were talking uninformed nonsense - that's what I meant.

 

[Andrew C!]

1. You may be surprised about the source of your electricity, especially in the UK, worth researching and especially understanding the changes over time, even during the period you own the car.

2. Agree about weight, as I've grown older my awareness for the effects of falling of a normal cycle at 15 to 30mph has been heightened, along with the fact that brakes may not be as effective as I need too! Like good driving the old 'what you can see, what you can't see and what you can reasonably expect to happen' is deeply ingrained!

Re 1 above - totally agree!

 

[Darth Vader]

The battery will have an order of magnitude lower mass than many riders. The most popular e-scooters are a similar weight to a normal mountain bike, around 1/2 the weight of a sack of spuds.

Relative to a car or motorbike, it's insignificant, I know which I'm more likely to survive an impact with.

Indeed. The kinetic energy is 0.5mv^2 where m is the mass and v the velocity. So if a car is say 8 times heavier than a scooter plus rider for any given speed the car will have 8 times more energy. Its like being hit by 8 scooters at once. Another thing to note is that v squared in the equation. As you double the speed the kinetic energy increases 4 fold and at 3 times the speed 8 fold and that led (I think) to the phrase 'speed kills'.

Cheers,

DV

 

[SteveG]

I've been in a few cities where there were a fair number of eScooters in use - a mix of on-pavement, in cycle lanes and on the road. My main question with them really is where are they going to be used? Cycle lanes is probably the best option (although my experience of cycling in places where powered vehicles were allowed in the cycle lanes, such as in the Netherlands, hasn't been good). In the UK though there aren't enough cycle lanes to have them exclusively used there, so that means therefore they'd need to be used on the road as well (and I'm not sure I'd be keen using one on the road, although others might) as allowing them on the pavement would obviously be a crazy idea.

It's also worth noting that there are no real health/fitness benefits of them (not direct ones at least although there could be arguments made on the basis of lowered emissions from reduced car use) - possibly quite the reverse in fact (e.g. using public transport does at least usually need there to be some walking to and from stations or bus stops). I know a few folks that use them, and for all of the ones I know it's to stop them having to walk anywhere (e.g. even on campsites from their motorhomes or caravans to the shower block) - not because they can't walk any distance (although of course there will be some users for whom walking any distance isn't an option and these could provide some mobility/independence benefits).

I'm not convinced they will lead to any significant reduction in car use (e.g. in London its far more likely to be a switch away from using public transport such as the tube or buses) and am also not convinced about the associated environment or health benefits (at least on any scale that'd be useful). So without the necessary infrastructure in place to support them (e.g. comprehensive cycle lane coverage) I suspect we're just introducing something that could make our cities even more unpleasant to get around in i.e. they'll end up mostly be used on pavements, and inappropriate places and at inappropriate speeds.

 

[Bob McC]

Having another look at this, you need a driving license (or at least a provisional one) to hire one & be over 18. This is the same requirement as driving a car, are they more or less dangerous than a car?

There’s only one of them I’d use to go along the A34 and it isn’t the scooter!

 

[sean99]

Perhaps not explained adequately enough in my previous post, but my inference is that at least some knowledge of the relevant conventions of riding/driving on a road or pavement need to be recognised by the hirer of these machines.

The use of helmets and gloves is another consideration, but in that context I'm talking common sense to most on this thread in this regard - but that wont be sheared by the wider public.

When my local gym was open, I used to see a former colleague, who received life altering injuries(see article). I used to supervise Diederik. Lovely bloke. Tenacious cop. His life in effect taken away by shite driving. And Diederik was a very competent cyclist.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-19757901

Awful story - and the driver in this case was not necessarily aggressive - just completely failed to realize how dangerous driving can be. I think that may be as big a problem as reckless/ aggressive driving - we're all so familiar with driving and that familiarity hides the great danger to yourself and others whenever you get behind the wheel. Modern life is so safe, and yet your life can change in an instant when behind the wheel of a car.

 

[Mike Reed]

Up until Jan 2016 you could have full throttle assistance up to the legal max of 25km/h. Now you can have throttle up to 6km/h

Possibly 15 mph in real money, but haven't a clue about the throttle thing. D'you mean that you can't go above 6 km/h on electric power? Doesn't make sense.

What category of motor bike licenCe did you hold at that time?
When the bike as purchased, what conditions were given with it regarding its use?

If its an electric bicycle, they are exempt from this topic, as they have separate means of propelling them.

I did have m/cycles on my license, but my wife, who rode it mostly, had no licence. Nor was one needed at the time, nor any regulatory conditions advised.

Yes, scooters as opposed to cycles. No idea at the beginning what vehicle the thread was about, as bikes were mentioned. As I was toying with getting another electrically driven pedal-assist cycle, I should familiarise myself with the latest reg's.