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Do Japanese amps do PRAT?

An engineer admitting he hears differences in cables is in line with stating he has been abducted by aliens, never going to happen on here no matter what the experience.
 
LouisB said:
Hey, I'm all for interesting banter and advice.

What are the clangers you speak of, lets go over them so we can be sure of the problems :) I think some things I mentioned have also been aired by others. As I reiterate I think there can be more than one point of view on some of these matters, especially when we get to fringe subjectives. PRaT is a terrible name, it certainly doesn't help in these matters either.

BTW it's entirely likely I'll buy an amp like the Rega, if not the exact Rega. Never questioned it was a bad choice, not for a second. Or asked you to justify it or prove your opinion has value because of your personal background.
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Rega amps are a solid choice if you put music first over hifiisms such as imaging, air, space, soundstaging etc etc..Most of their amp designs are derived from 60's technology, they always put music to the fore.

I'm currently trying to get mine back as I miss it so much & seriously regret selling it.
 
Ragaman said:
Rega amps are a solid choice if you put music first over hifiisms such as imaging, air, space, soundstaging etc etc..Most of their amp designs are derived from 60's technology, they always put music to the fore.

I'm currently trying to get mine back as I miss it so much & seriously regret selling it.
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What one do you have?
 
LouisB said:
What one do you have?
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I had a Rega Brio 2000 then a Brio 3, both were wonderfully musical amps. Something just feels right about the sound, hard to put your finger on it.

If I had the money I would go for the newer Brio-r, this is a superb amp, sounds much more powerful than it's 100 watts suggest, I could heartily recommend it if your looking at this brand. You can get hold of them for as little £275 in some cases which is great value.

There was one on here a little while back, it may have been sold but worth a look if you decide to try one.
 
Sibbers said:
Sorry dude. Your clearly a smart chap and pretty much everything you say is logical and makes sense, and in fact thinking it through it makes me sympathise with people like John West who constantly say they have a hard time acknowledging audible differences that they can't reasonably explain with all their years of experience creating and designing audio gear etc.

Imagine being an audio engineer and hearing differences in cables. What do you do? Admit your experience? Instant career suicide. I have no opinion on this, although I am doubtful I can't force my view on anyone because I have no practical way of backing it up. That said, if cables really do make a difference, then against all the resistance I'd like to hear about it.

Also, the Rega is great but my advice is deffo hear it. I've flown the flag for Rega a bit but it doesn't mean they are the best. They are great, and they were behind the amp that made the difference in my journey, but I wouldn't want you to make an ultimate choice of Rega without hearing a bunch of other stuff just in case! I've tried to be careful to not say it's what you should get, but rather say my experience was excellent and enlightening, but honestly I would suggest that the kind of people worth listening to are not the likes of me anyway. I just want to pass on what I wish people would have told me years ago, and that is that audiophiles aren't all more money than sense brigade, some of the weird foo stuff seems to exist, probably even prat. The problem with prat seems to be no one agrees what it is, or they're offended by it as a marketing term.

Anyway, I sort of regret posting the last post and this is way off topic so I'll apologise and say no more. No hard feelings mate and the offer is genuine if you ever are if the area! I'll even provide tea and biscuits (or beer and pork scratchings) The LSA amp is truly something else but I think probably the Rega is where the most bang for buck is.
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Morning,

No worries. Thanks for the nice post.

I can sense you're a decent chap, with humility and an open mind. That's all that really matters.

Absolutely no need to apologise or regret a post. No offence taken in the same way I don't intend to cause any either, yet don't want to feel stifled or repressed in airing an opinion (or see anyone else feel that way either).

I suspect we've both been around the block enough to have experienced enough things to be able to form our own opinions, opinions as valid as anyone else's, especially when we get towards the more subjective and ill defined aspects of hi-fi. For which for me, in the hi-fi world there's a fair bit of apparent belief and mythology involved. I suppose having an engineering background doesn't help here. But I do remain open minded. After all, case in point, I've returned back to vinyl as a preference after a stint with digital. Well I'm very much a hybrid person now but I prefer my vinyl typically, so what is that all about, hard to justify I guess. And I use good cables too! :D I just don't go overboard on these things as whatever the case, the law of diminishing returns soon creeps in and although people insist otherwise, it's very, very easy to hear what you want to hear in a system when you've invested time and money in building, purchasing or designing it...

So no hard feelings either way. I enjoy these chats. It's a little light relief compared to some seriously mind-bending stuff I have to do for work. I don't see it even as important enough to possibly get slightly worked up about, not even an iota.

BTW the tea/beer and biscuits/pork scratchings and hi-fi music sounds grand, so I'll keep it in mind, thanks for the offer. The LSA sounds wonderful.

I think it's great we all appreciate our music and good reproduction thereof. Whatever the state of the music industry, there's an awful lot of fantastic music to enjoy, it's very accessible these days and although sometimes I feel I've only scratched the surface, I'm grateful there's so much more left to discover :D
 
Ragaman said:
I had a Rega Brio 2000 then a Brio 3, both were wonderfully musical amps. Something just feels right about the sound, hard to put your finger on it.

If I had the money I would go for the newer Brio-r, this is a superb amp, sounds much more powerful than it's 100 watts suggest, I could heartily recommend it if your looking at this brand. You can get hold of them for as little £275 in some cases which is great value.

There was one on here a little while back, it may have been sold but worth a look if you decide to try one.
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Very interesting. I love british Hi-fi, what's left of it.

In my short list of new amps I have the Rega (Elicit-R) as one of the top contenders right now. I've just been holding fire on a purchase while I soak up as much info as possible.

I'm also holding out to ideally find a used one, I can wait as the sound I have now is far from awful, but I may impulsively just go get one. We'll see. The Rega and also the Creek and Croft amps I find very appealing. I've looked also at CA, BAT, Roksan, Quad, McIntosh and Bryston to mention a few but I think I'd be happy with a Rega amp at that price point. So long as it doesn't get 'the hump' at being connected to my Project turntable hehe.

Hence threads like this I do find interesting, to hear peoples views on what works and what does not. While prat is a bad acronym for me, I have little doubt some amps are much more subjectively musical and pleasant to listen to than others.
 
I wonder if anyone actually determined whether or not Japanese amps really do PRAT or not? I feel a bit sorry for the OP.
 
LouisB said:
Thanks. I sympathise with your point, generally.

However, to me, it doesn't matter if KHF runs a biggest hi-shop in the galaxy.

In fact, to me that just says; vested interest...

I do not need to prove my knowledge to you guys and gals. I'll just have my say, just like you do.

I don't ask you to prove who you are in order you can express an opinion.

Although, fwiw I do have valid credentials, but frankly none of your business. I don't have any vested interests at all.

I'm not trying to sell you anything.

Amazing how touchy people get about domestic music reproduction gear. There are reasons why people touchy.

It's OK to have a different opinion, especially when you get to the esoteric all ill-defined subject of things like PRaT. I've expressed what I think about it. Rather than criticise me for it, how about spend the time to make a well argued case for the contrary point. Or accept that different views can exist.

(yes, I've also been listening, critically, to music, all of my life. It is not a competition!)
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LouisB, I seem to remember your expertise is in software? This would explain the rather terse communication style. Fwiw I suspect finkaudio's problem is more to do with the style of your assertions than their substance.
 
Sibbers said:
I wonder if anyone actually determined whether or not Japanese amps really do PRAT or not? I feel a bit sorry for the OP.
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Well it's a bit like asking if Germans have a sense of humour or if the Britsh display emotion. For me Tony L's post a couple of pages ago (153) is all he needs to bother reading.
 
LouisB said:
Very interesting. I love british Hi-fi, what's left of it.

In my short list of new amps I have the Rega (Elicit-R) as one of the top contenders right now. I've just been holding fire on a purchase while I soak up as much info as possible.

I'm also holding out to ideally find a used one, I can wait as the sound I have now is far from awful, but I may impulsively just go get one. We'll see. The Rega and also the Creek and Croft amps I find very appealing. I've looked also at CA, BAT, Roksan, Quad, McIntosh and Bryston to mention a few but I think I'd be happy with a Rega amp at that price point. So long as it doesn't get 'the hump' at being connected to my Project turntable hehe.

Hence threads like this I do find interesting, to hear peoples views on what works and what does not. While prat is a bad acronym for me, I have little doubt some amps are much more subjectively musical and pleasant to listen to than others.
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One thing guaranteed, the phono section on any Rega amp is first class & will bring out the best in any turntable, it is what they are all about. Check out their website, the guy who owns Rega makes these things for fun, honestly, making money comes secondary as their lack of advertising shows.
 
Markus S said:
LouisB, I seem to remember your expertise is in software? This would explain the rather terse communication style. Fwiw I suspect finkaudio's problem is more to do with the style of your assertions than their substance.
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You make incorrect assumptions.

PM me if you really want to know my background in order to feel better about it.

But really, I doubt it makes a difference to what we prefer to listen to. I would not hesitate to accept someones opinion about what they prefer to hear, 'expert' or otherwise. and define expert for aspects verging on purely subjective anyway.

So I suggest don't obsess over my background. I certainly won't say anything unqualified by my knowledge, I'm not that sort of guy.

And I hasten to say, your opinion is as valid to me as anyone else's, particularly around the less well defined and subjective aspects, absolutely, independently & regardless of your background. I'd find it priggish to think otherwise, quite frankly.
 
Ragaman said:
One thing guaranteed, the phono section on any Rega amp is first class & will bring out the best in any turntable, it is what they are all about. Check out their website, the guy who owns Rega makes these things for fun, honestly, making money comes secondary as their lack of advertising shows.
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Interesting point! So not to hijack and go further off topic but it's an integral part of some british amps, so...

So I'm using a MM (Ortofon 2M black, love it) and a PhonoBox RS.
The phonobox RS is really good although sometimes I wonder about how ruthlessly clinical it can be, it allows no where to hide it seems.
If the Rega has a comparable phono stage or better, I could sell the RS and put the money to the amp, making it an even cheaper upgrade.
Still, I'm quite a fan of separate boxes dedicated to a specific task, like the external preamp, also it's independently upgradable later. However, there's also something to be said for what can be achieved by careful integration within a single box by a single designer.

Interesting thought though, I guess I'd have to get the amp, compare internal and external phonostages and go from there. The RS is over £600 alone, so it's a big part of the £1500 elicit-r budget, but cost vs. quality are not entirely correlated variables, of course.
 
LouisB said:
Interesting point! So not to hijack and go further off topic but it's an integral part of some british amps, so...

So I'm using a MM (Ortofon 2M black, love it) and a PhonoBox RS.
The phonobox RS is really good although sometimes I wonder about how ruthlessly clinical it can be, it allows no where to hide it seems.
If the Rega has a comparable phono stage or better, I could sell the RS and put the money to the amp, making it an even cheaper upgrade.
Still, I'm quite a fan of separate boxes dedicated to a specific task, like the external preamp, also it's independently upgradable later. However, there's also something to be said for what can be achieved by careful integration within a single box by a single designer.

Interesting thought though, I guess I'd have to get the amp, compare internal and external phonostages and go from there. The RS is over £600 alone, so it's a big part of the £1500 elicit-r budget, but cost vs. quality are not entirely correlated variables, of course.
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Your last sentence makes so much sense.

If you were going for the elicit-r then, as you say you could compare, I would imagine the Rega would not sound as ruthless but no less detailed & maybe a little more musical but you won't know unless you decide to try it I suppose.

You could always take your equipment along to a local Rega dealer & have a long sit in session to make your mind up. Any Rega dealer would be happy to accommodate you I would imagine.
 
Sibbers said:
Rega barely say anything ever at all, and they only rate it at 105w's too. Very modest, so no PRAT terms. If I'm honest I still don't recognise the term myself, but the idea that amps only sound bad if they're poorly designed doesn't sit well with me as it was that advice, followed with many engineering logic based arguments that made me stick with the CA so long. Just from the recent upgrade to my LSA amp, I spent about £450 on parts alone to increase capacitance, better resistors etc etc so as basic as an amp is, it still requires expensive parts and well thought out design iterations (expensive minds, expensive trial and error) to make an advancement. If you're only copying another design, well then you still have the parts, the case to pay for.

Speakers are Dynaudio contour s1.4's. Little stand mounts. Don't appear like the kind of thing you'd need an amazing amp for by looking at them, but that said, even my crappy little Eltax speakers reveal the difference between the amp changes (although perhaps not the modification to the latest amp, and it's been too long for me to be able to tell now)

I'm no expert but I know what I've experienced, it's really obvious and I wish I knew before spending so much time enduring the situation. Worst case is I could have easily sold the speakers and never truly discovered them. I would have been ignorant and perhaps not realised but it's heart breaking to think that could have happened and probably I'd be going around saying that my experience of Dynaudio speakers were they were overpriced crap with dark flabby bass and lazy timing.
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Interesting.. :)
I imagine listening to some ProAc Response D-Two when you have the opportunity could be a nice comparison for you to the Dyn 1.4s.
 
torstoi said:
Interesting.. :)
I imagine listening to some ProAc Response D-Two when you have the opportunity could be a nice comparison for you to the Dyn 1.4s.
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You know, I've come very close on many occasions to owning ProAcs and they've kept on escaping me by very slim timing or slightly too high prices etc.

I got turned on to ProAc when I bought some speakers off a chap who'd upgraded to some 1SC's and it blew my mind. I heard F.E.A.R by Ian Brown, and it's a great song but not normally my usual music - the mids and the electronics used in the song were so rich with energy that it left a real impression on me that I chased, and my Dyn's had none of it. They sounded very real with voices and anything above that, but every pair of ProAcs just had this energy that I was missing.

The Rega added all that missing stuff, and the LSA gave more more of what I was getting from the Rega. Now, since the LSA amp in particular I'm not chasing that ProAc magic, thanks to the amp upgrade and the Dyn's have more of the low end too... Not sure about floor stander from ProAc or the models you've listed (they look like they probably go quite low to be fair) but unless someone made it very easy for me to hear them, my journey is done for a while. I think... you have planted a seed tho!

What was it that inspired your post btw? Have you had the same realisation with speaker demands on amplifiers, or are you familiar with the Dyns? Thanks for commenting btw

Also, just noticed above someone said the Rega Brio-R is 100w, but it's not it's 50W @ 8 and 74W @ 4 IIRC. Amazing amp though, another multiple award winner!
 
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