It isn't a small room:
Alex
yeh but your speakers are placed very close together and there is a lot of big furniture near by including a sofa and book case, its the space around the speakers that is most important
Do amplifiers really sound the same?
- Thread starter avole
- Start date
- Status
yeh but your speakers are placed very close together and there is a lot of big furniture near by including a sofa and book case, its the space around the speakers that is most important
See, this is where it gets confusing, on the one hand you say that "properly designed amps without any glaring technical shortcomings sound the same", but then you say that "the Samson was quite a bit better than the entry level Naims I've had, which sound rather mid-rangey and very hissy" which implies that the Naim amps aren't properly designed.
Yet Serge and Robert say that Naim amps are properly designed and sound no different to Exposure or Quad or Meridian etc.
john & Jake
Jake was smarter than me
Joke of the day.
A man goes into two amplifier factories.
There in both is an almost finished design that measures perfectly flat except for a peak around 2kz.
Both designers know that a 2.2uf cap will flatten out the response and make both amps perfect.
Designer A at el cheapo amps who shops at maplins buys a perfectly serviceable 2.2 uf 20% cap, designer B at Premier amps buys quality 2.2 uf 20% cap from his supplier HI fi collective.
Both amps now measure perfectly flat, but wait a minute using the same testing room and same system designer B's amp sounds better.
How come, both flat response, same testing conditions, a mystery worthy of Columbo.
Our hearing members know the answer, our deaf ones won't.
A man goes into two amplifier factories.
There in both is an almost finished design that measures perfectly flat except for a peak around 2kz.
Both designers know that a 2.2uf cap will flatten out the response and make both amps perfect.
Designer A at el cheapo amps who shops at maplins buys a perfectly serviceable 2.2 uf 20% cap, designer B at Premier amps buys quality 2.2 uf 20% cap from his supplier HI fi collective.
Both amps now measure perfectly flat, but wait a minute using the same testing room and same system designer B's amp sounds better.
How come, both flat response, same testing conditions, a mystery worthy of Columbo.
Our hearing members know the answer, our deaf ones won't.
ultrawomble
Sith Lord
Sadly your 'joke' has fallen on (my) deaf ears.
hammeredklavier
owner of two very cheap hi-fis
I would say that the Naims had some significant technical shortcomings. (Which I was gently implying without saying it!) The Nait was particularly hissy, and sounded like its frequency response curve was... well, more curvy than it ought to be (if the idea was to achieve transparency). Some obvious colourations in the Nait and the NAP90/NAP150 are probably due to audible distortion. Which shouldn't be there.
I've never had the chance to hear a Naim power amp without one of their pre-s, that might level the playing field a bit.
Mescalito
pfm Member
If it's several years since the Naim amps were heard, the excessive hiss levels may remain accurately in the memory. The actual sound quality? No chance of remembering it with any confidence, IMO.
Chris
hammeredklavier
owner of two very cheap hi-fis
I agree, although certain obvious problems stick in the mind.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
I contend that Naim amps, when used as the manufacturers intended will sound the same as a Quad amplifier under the same conditions. In the case of the Naim amplifier, this requires a length of high(ish) inductance cable as the amplifier is not unconditionally stable. The Quad doesn't care, so it can happily use the Naim cable.
This issue of unconditional stability is the reason I won't buy a Naim amplifier. Sonically, I have no issue with them at all, nor with build quality. I just find it a y perverse design decision not too make the amplifier unconditionally stable when most manufacturers manage this perfectly well. The cycnic might think it's so a Naim dealer can sell their fairly expensive 'speaker cable whilst the Quad user can quite happily use lighting flex.
S.
But he is using different speakers now. So it could have been that his old speakers were more sensitive and therefore hiss from the Naim amp could be heard.
I don't know (I've never used Naim amps, or Samson for that matter).
hammeredklavier
owner of two very cheap hi-fis
No, same speakers.
To be fair, I think a lot of the gremlins with the cheap Naims were caused by the preamp. Having an Audioengine D1 blowing straight into the Samson probably gives it a significant advantage.
By the way, the electronics on the end of those speakers have a total price of just less than £270, and whichever way you look at it, it sounds very very nice indeed. Hold that thought.
So maybe that's the reason, hammeredklavier wasn't using Naim cable with his Naim amps.
hammeredklavier
owner of two very cheap hi-fis
Nope, NAC A5 at first, then Avondale Black Link. Incidentally, Les Avondale's cable seemed to work much better with the NAP150. With his own amps, it didn't seem to make much difference if any, and I eventually changed to mains cable - which if anything suited the M130s better.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
They don't have to measure the same, just both be good enough such that both are transparent. If one amplifier has 0.05% distortion and the other 0.001%, the first is 50x worse, yet won't sound any different. If one amplifier is 0.5dB down at 20kHz and the other is 0.5dB down at 100kHz, again no audible difference. If one amplifier is 100 watts, and the other 1000 watts, no difference if both amplifiers are level matched and the smaller amplifier not allowed to clip.
And so on. Identical measurements are not required for identical sound.
S.
cooky1257
pfm Member
How do you measure transparent?
sergeauckland
pfm Member
You don't. Transparency is achieved when an amplifier or other device passes a straight-wire bypass test.. This has allowed the threshold of audibility to be derived for parameters like distortion, frequency response variations, noise levels, etc etc.
Over the years a body of experience exists which through testing has continued to confirm these thresholds.
The beauty of the straight-wire bypass test is that it can be applied at any time, and the transparency or otherwise established.
However, it has to be appreciated that thresholds of audibility are statistical in nature. It is quite possible that somebody somewhere can hear 0.001% distortion, or a 0.1dB variaton in frequency response at 10kHz. Possible, but pretty unlikely.
Considering that all hearing is a continuum between those totally deaf and someone who can hear a mouse fart at 100m, it surprises me somwehat that there are many on here that put themselves at the mouse fart end of the hearing ability continuum.
S.
hammeredklavier
owner of two very cheap hi-fis
That bloody cable's £20/m...!
what are the test you are referring too?
... most of the tests that are often quoted are designed to seek a consensus in a group of listeners and ignore individual results....
john & Jake
Jake was smarter than me
Hi, this is a new one on me.
I wish to do the straight wire test on my amp tonight could you please tell me how it is done.
I wish to do the straight wire test on my amp tonight could you please tell me how it is done.
- Status