keiron99, I think you're not quite the guy for the job on this thread!!! Buy yourself a Denon PMA480R and any other random amp like a Sony or an Audiolab. Fire 'em up and see if you can possibly detect splashy treble. The sound of crepe paper on a cymbal. A snare drum that sounds like it's covered in leaves. If you can't identify the inferiorities of the PMA480R, I suggest you invest in Argos's cheapest bedside radio or similar for your music listening. Oh dear.......
Do amplifiers really sound the same?
- Thread starter avole
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sergeauckland
pfm Member
I do measure every bit of audio kit I buy to make sure it meets the spec, or that any shortcomings are nevertheless acceptable. If they don't then it goes back for replacement or refund. Of the stuff I've designed or built myself, then clearly, measuring the stuff is part of the design and build process. Listening as a method of choice is meaningless for me, as the numbers tell me all I need to know, and listening is a final reality check just to make sure that what the numbers tells me is sensible and realistic. If I took an amplifier with a 100 watt 8 ohm rating and measured 50 watts (or 500 watts) I would first look to my measurement method and calculations, before accepting there was anything wrong or strange. Listening wouldn't tell me anything about that. On the other hand, if the amplifier measured -10db at 10kHz relative to 1 kHz, I would expect to have picked that up just by listening before even attaching a meter.
As to buying other stuff on spec, like a vacuum cleaner or washing machine, I accept I do assume that published specs are correct as I am in no position to measure the suction produced or the spin speed. Ditto with washing powders or toothpaste. I am in no position to verify the list of ingredients,so some parts of my life do involve assumptions, but I try as much as possible to keep those out of HiFi.
S.
Cereal Killer
432
You are assuming all kit sounds the same, Serge.
john & Jake
Jake was smarter than me
Hi, cymbals are a good case in point, the number of different interpretations different amps put on the same cymbal crash is ridiculous.
Satisfaction can be got from a cymbal that sounds like it's made of brass.
Multiply that throughout the musical spectrum and if you find an amp that gets it to your liking then stop looking and start listening to the music.
hammeredklavier
owner of two very cheap hi-fis
I did something similar a few weeks ago, A-Bing my new Audioengine D1 against the ASUS Essence STX in the computer. I kind of got the impression that the Essence was perhaps a little bit 'harder', but whichever way you look at it, if there was any real difference, it was the square root of bugger all.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
And Harbeth loudspeakers are an easy and forgiving load, which was, pretty much Alan Shaw's point. Hence the test, using Harbeths, would be unlikely to challenge amps greatly.
Like Alan Sircom said, two cars cruising at 30. Not a very testing regime.
Like Alan Sircom said, two cars cruising at 30. Not a very testing regime.
keiron99
pfm Member
Hi, cymbals are a good case in point, the number of different interpretations different amps put on the same cymbal crash is ridiculous.
Satisfaction can be got from a cymbal that sounds like it's made of brass.
Multiply that throughout the musical spectrum and if you find an amp that gets it to your liking then stop looking and start listening to the music.
In all seriousness, how would an amplifier designer go about building an amplifier that is particularly good at (re)creating that sound? Would they use a particular value of component, or type of circuit layout, for example? [Forgive my lack of technical expertise!]
I read that Naim amps are good at "pace", "rhythm" and "timing". I don't pretend to know what that means, but surely if Naim amps have a "house" sound, then there must be something about the designs that is common across the range? There's no hidden ingredients - anyone can take the lid off and have a look at the components they use, so how do they achieve it?
john & Jake
Jake was smarter than me
House sounds are much to do with component selection.
I haven't looked inside a Naim, but Farlowe era Exposure amps use a lot of Philips caps.
Probably not the best sounding in the world but dependable which no doubt influences the slightly soft but rugged musical nature of the amps.
The ten is positively organic in nature but still resembles the eight.
I haven't looked inside a Naim, but Farlowe era Exposure amps use a lot of Philips caps.
Probably not the best sounding in the world but dependable which no doubt influences the slightly soft but rugged musical nature of the amps.
The ten is positively organic in nature but still resembles the eight.
Like a brussel sprout, you mean, or more a free range egg?
Teddy Ray
pfm Member
All non believers please re-read the above in red, haven't you put a different amp in place in your system and noticed a difference, hands up, then amps do sound different ie. not the same.
FFS
This is also the magazine in which a reviewer gave us this gem
Although my entire system has changed in the eight years since the first version of the 101E Radialstrahler was here, I feel confident saying that the sound of the Mk.II is more refined and well behaved, and far more capable of speaking with a uniform, focused voice.
that mag , with the exception of Atkinson is a bunch of Shills/Court Jesters, with Fremer the leader of the pack...
john & Jake
Jake was smarter than me
ok, i give up, trying to educate deaf people is clearly impossible.
I know that all amp designers are not designing the same amp. They are designing different amps, they are designed to sound different/better otherwise there is no point in designing another amp.
John, and Jake, come on Jake, have left the room.
I know that all amp designers are not designing the same amp. They are designing different amps, they are designed to sound different/better otherwise there is no point in designing another amp.
John, and Jake, come on Jake, have left the room.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Actually very 'real world' for the way amplifiers are used. Stressing amps is not how most people listen to music, or if they are, you soon see changes.
Mescalito
pfm Member
ok, i give up, trying to educate deaf people is clearly impossible.
I know that all amp designers are not designing the same amp. They are designing different amps, they are designed to sound different/better otherwise there is no point in designing another amp.
John, and Jake, come on Jake, have left the room.
There is every point. If they don't, they go out of business. But as long as there are gullible audiophiles willing to buy the marketing hype, they can continue to design amps/CDPs/DACs which are essentially identical in sound & performance as the units they are replacing, going back decades in the case of amplifiers.
Chris
What you say is undeniably true. Which validates my point all the more when it comes to normal folks, in normal homes with (reasonably) normal music-listening needs.
Robert
Tapehead
That depends upon who you ask.
For example, a well known amplifier manufacturer and proponent of the 'simple is best' ideology (think three letters and Perspex) would strongly disagree on a BBC based design being an easy load.
You can't have it all ways.
Do we typically measure the output impedance of an amplifier at different frequencies? In theory, a modern solid state design ought not vary much across the range, but how true is this?
Valves, all bets off in this respect!
Just wondering about a couple of comments re components. I'm proposing taking apart the old Pioneer to see why that channel cuts out intermittently. Since I'll have the soldering iron out, is it worth changing some of the components for better (as in more expensive) ones, and, if so, which ones in particular should make a difference?
Also thinking about putting in a switch to bypass the tone controls if it's possible, but haven't tracked down any circuit diagrams yet.
Also thinking about putting in a switch to bypass the tone controls if it's possible, but haven't tracked down any circuit diagrams yet.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
Old SS amps had a series output capacitor, so the output impedance was relatively high at LF, and many have a series inductor, so the impedance rises at HF. However with modern SS amplifiers, the series capacitor is absent, ar as in the case of my Behringers, is effectively inside the feedback loop, so the impedance doesn't rise, but the series inductor is still there and there is an icrease in impedance at HF.
However, considering that the impedances are so low, it really doesn't matter if the impedance at HF is twice that at LF when they're both comfortably under 0.1 ohms for the better amplifiers. In the case of my Behringers, it's 0.125 ohms at LF, but 0.243ohms at HF. Somewhat higher than their spec, and somewhat higher than the best of modern designs, but still not excessive.
S.
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