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Do amplifiers really sound the same?

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sergeauckland said:
In the case of my Behringers, it's 0.125 ohms at LF, but 0.243ohms at HF. Somewhat higher than their spec, and somewhat higher than the best of modern designs, but still not excessive.

S.
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Interesting. I gather their distortion measurements are higher than spec too.

Still waiting to take delivery of my Samson Servo 120a by the way. Got my old speakers out of the cupboard and wired them up with some 1.5 mm2 mains 2-core flex in readiness. Be interesting!
 
keiron99 said:
In all seriousness, how would an amplifier designer go about building an amplifier that is particularly good at (re)creating that sound? Would they use a particular value of component, or type of circuit layout, for example? [Forgive my lack of technical expertise!]

I read that Naim amps are good at "pace", "rhythm" and "timing". I don't pretend to know what that means, but surely if Naim amps have a "house" sound, then there must be something about the designs that is common across the range? There's no hidden ingredients - anyone can take the lid off and have a look at the components they use, so how do they achieve it?
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A definite goal, years of experience and listening and always listening, component selection, layout, construction techniques, testing, QC and more QC and more testing.
The best audio companies are not just making a widget by banging components together, they know exactly what they want to achieve and take pride in their products.
Errol.
 
hammeredklavier said:
Interesting. I gather their distortion measurements are higher than spec too.

Still waiting to take delivery of my Samson Servo 120a by the way. Got my old speakers out of the cupboard and wired them up with some 1.5 mm2 mains 2-core flex in readiness. Be interesting!
Click to expand...

Yes, the Behringer specs are somewhat optimistic, but not ridiculously so. For example noise is indeed -100dB A weighted, but only some -90dB unweighted, so although meeting spec, the A weighting hides some mains buzz.

As to distortion, when I measured it, I had a problem with my generator that was putting out 0.05% distortion, so the 0.07% distortion I measured on the amp was polluted by the generator's distortion. I haven't measured them again, but should do.

S.
 
Errol said:
A definite goal, years of experience and listening and always listening, component selection, layout, construction techniques, testing, QC and more QC and more testing.
The best audio companies are not just making a widget by banging components together, they know exactly what they want to achieve and take pride in their products.
Errol.
Click to expand...

Thanks, but they are very sweeping comments. Surely (if one believes amplifiers do sound different), there must be known techniques to create different sounds, in the same way a speaker can be tuned, or even the exhaust on a car.

I can't pretend to understand what is meant by terms which are commonly used such as "sweet" or "controlled" (or "behaved"!). But for example, we all understand a "bright" sound. How would one go about creating that? Are there any technically minded people here who could explain how that would be achieved?
 
john & Jake said:
I know that all amp designers are not designing the same amp. They are designing different amps, they are designed to sound different/better otherwise there is no point in designing another amp.:)
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Two things.
1. They are in business to make money. Like most of us here probably are. And you need customers to keep coming back and buying more stuff.

2. There are many ways to skin cat but you still get the same outcome. A bit like taps on a sink, there a millions of designs but they all just let water through when you turn them on. Or wheels on a car, driven by petrol or diesel or electric. [I''ll stop with the crap analogies :)]
 
OK, I have put my money - albeit not much! :D - where my mouth is. I have been without a hi-fi for a few years now, since I sold my Avondale front end to pay university course fees. Since then, I've been listening to headphones. In the recent past, I have had a Nait3, NAP90/NAP150 (as is, and also with a flatcap2, and later an Avondale APX1), and finally, a Grad One with M130s. So I have heard the Vienna Acoustics Haydns that I still own with some serious electronics.

Anyway, my DAC/headphone amp also has RCA outs and an analogue potentiometer, so all I needed to get myself a functional hi-fi set up again was a power amp. So, partly because I fancy the occasional listen without headphones, and partly to see how a cheap pro-audio power amp would compare with what I'd heard in the past, I ordered a Samson Servo 120a. I think it's rated about about 50 w into 8 ohms, so roughly equivalent to the NAP150.

I have just set up the system with ABSOLUTELY NO FOO. No foo whatsoever. The Samson and the Audioengine DAC are on a wobbly wooden stand. The interconnects are red and white jobbies that came free with a CD player, the speakers are wired up with mains flex, the amp is juiced up via a common or garden kettle lead, the DAC is hooked up to the computer via 5 m of optical toslink that was about £5 off the 'bay, and it is powered by a £2 wall wart charger from the same place, connected to the device via an ordinary printer USB cable. A few pics:

DSC_9829.jpg


samson.jpg


DSC_9849.jpg


DSC_9861.jpg


Sounds fantastic. Not as powerful as the M130s, but at least as good as the Naim amps and considerably better than the Nait (cleaner, more neutral, far less hiss!).

The amp was less than £120, delivered.

Do they all sound the same? Well, I think I can say that properly designed amps without any glaring technical shortcomings sound the same.
 
hammeredklavier said:
OK, I have put my money - albeit not much! :D - where my mouth is. I have been without a hi-fi for a few years now, since I sold my Avondale front end to pay university course fees. Since then, I've been listening to headphones. In the recent past, I have had a Nait3, NAP90/NAP150 (as is, and also with a flatcap2, and later an Avondale APX1), and finally, a Grad One with M130s. So I have heard the Vienna Acoustics Haydns that I still own with some serious electronics.

Anyway, my DAC/headphone amp also has RCA outs and an analogue potentiometer, so all I needed to get myself a functional hi-fi set up again was a power amp. So, partly because I fancy the occasional listen without headphones, and partly to see how a cheap pro-audio power amp would compare with what I'd heard in the past, I ordered a Samson Servo 120a. I think it's rated about about 50 w into 8 ohms, so roughly equivalent to the NAP150.

I have just set up the system with ABSOLUTELY NO FOO. No foo whatsoever. The Samson and the Audioengine DAC are on a wobbly wooden stand. The interconnects are red and white jobbies that came free with a CD player, the speakers are wired up with mains flex, the amp is juiced up via a common or garden kettle lead, the DAC is hooked up to the computer via 5 m of optical toslink that was about £5 off the 'bay, and it is powered by a £2 wall wart charger from the same place, connected to the device via an ordinary printer USB cable. A few pics:

DSC_9829.jpg


samson.jpg


DSC_9849.jpg


DSC_9861.jpg


Sounds fantastic. Not as powerful as the M130s, but at least as good as the Naim amps and considerably better than the Nait (cleaner, more neutral, far less hiss!).

The amp was less than £120, delivered.

Do they all sound the same? Well, I think I can say that properly designed amps without any glaring technical shortcomings sound the same.
Click to expand...

If thats where you sit I'm not surprised!
 
hammeredklavier said:
OK, I have put my money - albeit not much! :D - where my mouth is. I have been without a hi-fi for a few years now, since I sold my Avondale front end to pay university course fees. Since then, I've been listening to headphones. In the recent past, I have had a Nait3, NAP90/NAP150 (as is, and also with a flatcap2, and later an Avondale APX1), and finally, a Grad One with M130s. So I have heard the Vienna Acoustics Haydns that I still own with some serious electronics.

Anyway, my DAC/headphone amp also has RCA outs and an analogue potentiometer, so all I needed to get myself a functional hi-fi set up again was a power amp. So, partly because I fancy the occasional listen without headphones, and partly to see how a cheap pro-audio power amp would compare with what I'd heard in the past, I ordered a Samson Servo 120a. I think it's rated about about 50 w into 8 ohms, so roughly equivalent to the NAP150.

I have just set up the system with ABSOLUTELY NO FOO. No foo whatsoever. The Samson and the Audioengine DAC are on a wobbly wooden stand. The interconnects are red and white jobbies that came free with a CD player, the speakers are wired up with mains flex, the amp is juiced up via a common or garden kettle lead, the DAC is hooked up to the computer via 5 m of optical toslink that was about £5 off the 'bay, and it is powered by a £2 wall wart charger from the same place, connected to the device via an ordinary printer USB cable. A few pics:

DSC_9829.jpg


samson.jpg


DSC_9849.jpg


DSC_9861.jpg


Sounds fantastic. Not as powerful as the M130s, but at least as good as the Naim amps and considerably better than the Nait (cleaner, more neutral, far less hiss!).

The amp was less than £120, delivered.

Do they all sound the same? Well, I think I can say that properly designed amps without any glaring technical shortcomings sound the same.[/QUOTE]

Liberating, isn't it?

You are now free to base hi fi purchasing decisions on factors other than sound quality, as that is essentially assured in any competantly designed amp.

WAF, bling, visual design, colour of LEDs, pride of ownership....owt you like, really.

Chris
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cooky1257 said:
Genius.
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No, purely logical. Given that competently designed amps are sonically indistiguishable, you are free to choose using other criteria.

I suppose for people who are interested in hi fi primarily for the hardware, that's a bit heretical, but really, hi fi is just a tool for listening to music, and it IS liberating to no longer be bound by imagined subtle differences,.

Chris

Chris
 
Well if people are listening to their systems in small rooms like that with no space around the speakers, i'm not surprised they are not hearing much difference between amps and sources.

My first room was like that and at that point most things sounded the same.( amps / CD players )

It wasn't till I moved house and had a largish front room ( 5m x 4.5m) with good space around my speakers , and was able to listen at decent levels, that many of the differences in equipment became obvious.
 
hammeredklavier said:
Sounds fantastic. Not as powerful as the M130s, but at least as good as the Naim amps and considerably better than the Nait (cleaner, more neutral, far less hiss!).

The amp was less than £120, delivered.

Do they all sound the same? Well, I think I can say that properly designed amps without any glaring technical shortcomings sound the same.
Click to expand...

It's funny how all the "subjective opinions are worthless, you must perform DBT's to come to any meaningful conclusions" go out the window when someone is trying to make a point.

Hammeredklavier said "I have been without a hi-fi for a few years now" so his subjective opinion that the Samson is at least as good as the Naim amps and considerably better than the Nait is based on what he remembers his system sounded like a couple of years ago (unless I'm missing something). Doesn't sound very scientific to me.
 
Mescalito said:
No, purely logical. Given that competently designed amps are sonically indistiguishable, you are free to choose using other criteria.

I suppose for people who are interested in hi fi primarily for the hardware, that's a bit heretical, but really, hi fi is just a tool for listening to music, and it IS liberating to no longer be bound by imagined subtle differences,.

Chris

Chris
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Then you should have written '...amplifier purchasing......" Foolish boy.
 
DSCOTT said:
It's funny how all the "subjective opinions are worthless, you must perform DBT's to come to any meaningful conclusions" go out the window when someone is trying to make a point.

Hammeredklavier said "I have been without a hi-fi for a few years now" so his subjective opinion that the Samson is at least as good as the Naim amps and considerably better than the Nait is based on what he remembers his system sounded like a couple of years ago (unless I'm missing something). Doesn't sound very scientific to me.
Click to expand...

It isn't scientific. To be honest, going on my recollections, I'd say the Samson was quite a bit better than the entry level Naims I've had, which sound rather mid-rangey and very hissy.

The sonic signature of the Samson and the M130s is probably very similar indeed, because both are virtually transparent. Obviously the Samson can't match the sheer firepower of the Avondale monoblocs, but in every other respect...

Now, as an aside, if it hasn't been obvious before it should I hope be obvious now: unless you're VERY determined to stick with CD players and/or turntables, you don't need a pre-amp. There's one massive source of noise, distortion and expense gone straight away. I wish I still had the M130s to hand to try with the Audioengine.
 
avole said:
Just wondering about a couple of comments re components. I'm proposing taking apart the old Pioneer to see why that channel cuts out intermittently. Since I'll have the soldering iron out, is it worth changing some of the components for better (as in more expensive) ones, and, if so, which ones in particular should make a difference?

Also thinking about putting in a switch to bypass the tone controls if it's possible, but haven't tracked down any circuit diagrams yet.
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Hi, while you have the iron out change old caps. Read what it says on the side 220uf 20% etc and pick up any old cap with the same markings out of the bin, off the floor, Maplins, in fact anywhere as it obviously is a total waste of money filling your amp with quality caps as it will still sound the same:rolleyes:;)
 
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