Disastrous and disruptive central heating installation; where to now?
- Thread starter Mike Reed
- Start date
notaclue
pfm Member
Yes, you could just go for leak detection now-ish to know where you stand. So long as you and/or insurance are happy to bear the cost. They might find you have two leaks under the lounge and you decide surface pipes is a less disruptive fix. Or they might find one leak in the hall that can be dug up and fixed very simply. Or they might find nothing.
A Google suggests leak detection is one of those things where companies appear to be local but they aren't really E.g. https://www.adiproleakdetection.com/l/norwich/water-leak-detection/ and https://norwich.rainbow-int.co.uk/services/leak-detection/ Bigger companies with local coverage and/or franchises.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
I know this is unhelpful, but my life long advice to me is, never, ever, buy new tech until it's on Mk111 or more.. All you're doing is trialling and error finding for the company concerned.
lawrence001
Basic Member
Ah right that's another strategy. I assumed you would want to set the thermostat to the temperature you want the house to be at eg of its 22 degs, work out where on the TVR scale 22 is, set all the TVRs to that (or whatever each room temp you want) and then put it in the last room (with the TVR set a fair bit higher than 22). That way as each room warms up the heating will stay on until the last room is at 22 and then hopefully the boiler will top up the heat as required and it will remain around that temp until the timer goes back off.
Calibrating the thermostat setting to what works best in each room you place it might work too.
lawrence001
Basic Member
But regardless of how you balance the rads, when the heating comes on won't the water cool down as it flows around the system giving out its heat, and the first rooms will heat up before the later ones. Once the first rooms warm up and the TVRs close, the hot water will go straight through to the later rooms only losing heat through the pipes. Or have I missed something?
Edit: ah are you saying you balance them so that only some of the water flows into the first rads, and the hot water still gets through the whole house, effectively distributing the heat roughly equally between the rooms very quickly? I wasn't aware it was done that way. Are most boiler engineers good at doing this it sounds like quite a faf involving a lot of time once they've installed the boiler or whatever they are doing for you and I'm sure they'd rather move on to a boiler repair job or something
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Very much obliged for those links, and one really does seem to be in Norwich, or at least operates from here. My wife looked on Google earlier and found the ADI one and another but the Rainbow one is a bonus.
We've been discussing the options available. It would be nice to discuss with our plumber, too, but maybe when he's not too busy to come and have a chat
.We could start the detection process after phoning them for general info., costs, etc. If covered by my insurance (John Lewis claims dept. were helpful but not specific on this). Find the leak, repair and re-screed (the latter not covered by ins.) BUT another leak may appear in future in similar situations as happened in December; high boiler rate 75 degrees (but now reduced) coupled with aggressive cleaner and a long cold snap.
We could install a gas fire (as Tony has linked) as the gas supply is beside the hearth (new in 2009) which will cover the north-eastern end of our living room (my hifi/TV sofa !!!!) and bring some pipes down from above rads/circuit and reduce rad count (I've worked out fairly unobtrusive routes, if feasible c/h circuit wise). My installer suggested this, so I guess it's doable.
Hope another dose of Fernox or whatever completes its task, though bearing in mind that this is unlikely to be permanent. Cheap option though, and we think worth taking anyway, except this could impede the detection process as mentioned in a previous post
When this house was built (1962), htg was by a fire 'hole' off the kitchen (access plate outside in the second chimney . Not sure how this worked, but guess pipes must've been laid. My guess is that when the Potterton came along in the 80s it used the same pipes, possibly adding to them. Regardless, most of the pipework in the living area is at least 40 years old by my reckoning and was added to 2005 and 2009 with building works.
Appreciate the help and empathy.
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Mike I think the time is coming for you to come to a definitive decision here, as @Ellenor and one of the other plumbers on here along with myself, have been suggesting for a while now and that the only real option now is to replace the heating system pipe-work entirely and probably the radiators too but keep the boiler and cylinder and the new controls.
Sorry but there’s nothing really else to advise now.
Also get rid of the plumber he’s not interested in sorting this problem out.
Contact British Gas for a quote and maybe one or two local companies and take it from there and consider moving out whilst the work is being done or just sell up and move and let someone else handle the problem.
There’s absolutely no point in throwing money at the old heating system ref leak detection etc etc.
I know this probably isn’t what you want to read Mike but I think that you’re really getting to the end of the road here.
Sorry but there’s nothing really else to advise now.
Also get rid of the plumber he’s not interested in sorting this problem out.
Contact British Gas for a quote and maybe one or two local companies and take it from there and consider moving out whilst the work is being done or just sell up and move and let someone else handle the problem.
There’s absolutely no point in throwing money at the old heating system ref leak detection etc etc.
I know this probably isn’t what you want to read Mike but I think that you’re really getting to the end of the road here.
venton
pfm Member
In reality the boiler engineer can't really do this in a reasonable time scale, it takes too long. There's some good youtube videos on how to do it diy. But yes, as per your edit, by restricting flow to first rads, some very hot water goes past into the next etc. The likely end result is the initial lockshield valves are open just cracked a quarter of a turn, and the last one is wide open. It's quite primitive really.But regardless of how you balance the rads, when the heating comes on won't the water cool down as it flows around the system giving out its heat, and the first rooms will heat up before the later ones. Once the first rooms warm up and the TVRs close, the hot water will go straight through to the later rooms only losing heat through the pipes. Or have I missed something?
Edit: ah are you saying you balance them so that only some of the water flows into the first rads, and the hot water still gets through the whole house, effectively distributing the heat roughly equally between the rooms very quickly? I wasn't aware it was done that way. Are most boiler engineers good at doing this it sounds like quite a faf involving a lot of time once they've installed the boiler or whatever they are doing for you and I'm sure they'd rather move on to a boiler repair job or something
Mike doesn’t have new tech he has tried and tested controls that have been installed in heating systems for about 40 years and still being installed in new houses today, Honeywell S and Y plan systems are as good as heating systems get.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Not a case of 'want to read', Tony but choosing very few finite options (and no others have come up). Can't move, as my burial plot is secured in the garden along with our cats and chickens. I do agree with your first sentence above though. No need to move out; we're used to living in a mess, esp. lately. British Gas???? You're kidding.
One thing, though; I really must get the plumber round to discuss this first unless he simply avoids contact AND get in touch his previous mentor, who still services mine and my sister's properties after 13 years; he's old school, though unlikely to be able to take on the job, but can advise.
Our current bedroom one, which missed having a new TRV, is controlled by the lockshield (and small clamp), as was the other bedroom before the installation. Yes, balancing is simply trial and error, but moving the 'stat will help a bit too. These things are peripheral to getting our leak sorted, though and as Tony says above, decisions need to be made.
I personally think it’s worth doing a one off repair on a pipe in a concrete floor. One repair is fine, usually it’s a joint gone as pipework buried in screed can’t expand freely. I’m wondering if the bad joint was bunged up with sludge and putting cleanser in uncovered the leak. In my experience these things often turn out to be not as bad as feared. You’ve got to start lifting carpets, find the damp area and chisel up and repair.
Your installer isn’t browsing Pinkfish is he? Would explain why he’s done a runner lol
Your installer isn’t browsing Pinkfish is he? Would explain why he’s done a runner lol
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Your installer isn’t browsing Pinkfish is he? Would explain why he’s done a runner lol
Now that would be illuminating, but I doubt he has the time and know that hifi is an alien concept.
.Here's our thinking to forget detection etc. and do a root & branch re-org. with pipework from above (where possible) in the spring and the installation of a gas fire, and here's you advocating the leak detection/repair route. I was confused before but now I'm not so sure !
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mandryka
pfm Member
If it were me I think, and I couldn’t put it on the insurance, I’d take the opportunity to be radical. Do you really need wet central heating at all? Why not use gas and electric heaters, maybe even storage heaters, and solid fuel and an electric water heater for a year and see how you get on?
I’ll just mention in passing that by far the best heating I’ve lived with was storage heaters, on some sort of economy tariff which gave them a couple of hours boost in the day, I think it was called Economy 10. Silent and warm, and very cost effective, they had a little fan to move the heat out into the room. And foolproof. That’s certainly an option I’d be considering.
I’ll just mention in passing that by far the best heating I’ve lived with was storage heaters, on some sort of economy tariff which gave them a couple of hours boost in the day, I think it was called Economy 10. Silent and warm, and very cost effective, they had a little fan to move the heat out into the room. And foolproof. That’s certainly an option I’d be considering.
Mike the reason I mention BG for a quote is that
1) They'll spec the job
2) They'll actually do the job and they'll honour the guarantee
3) There will be no faffing about because they'll be the most expensive (maybe) but if you can afford it then they are a good option plus their aftercare is good and frankly at your age that must be a consideration after all you can't take the dosh with you into the garden when you shuffle off
4) You can use their quote as a benchmark ie ask other firms to quote using the same spec
5) You can play each other against each other but in saying that your job isn't exactly appealing, personally I'd run a mile, but someone will be interested especially if they're up against BG.
Tony
PS, personally everything other than a complete re-do of the heating system per my post above is just a sticking plaster and throwing money away, yes, as @Ellenor said above, you might get lucky and find and fix the current leak then there probably will be more leaks for you to go through the whole thing again Mike.
The bottom line is that your heating system pipe-work is sh@GGed and no amount of repair will fix it IMO.
1) They'll spec the job
2) They'll actually do the job and they'll honour the guarantee
3) There will be no faffing about because they'll be the most expensive (maybe) but if you can afford it then they are a good option plus their aftercare is good and frankly at your age that must be a consideration after all you can't take the dosh with you into the garden when you shuffle off
4) You can use their quote as a benchmark ie ask other firms to quote using the same spec
5) You can play each other against each other but in saying that your job isn't exactly appealing, personally I'd run a mile, but someone will be interested especially if they're up against BG.
Tony
PS, personally everything other than a complete re-do of the heating system per my post above is just a sticking plaster and throwing money away, yes, as @Ellenor said above, you might get lucky and find and fix the current leak then there probably will be more leaks for you to go through the whole thing again Mike.
The bottom line is that your heating system pipe-work is sh@GGed and no amount of repair will fix it IMO.
There has to be good insulation for your suggestion to work otherwise it's a waste of time, I've never met anyone who preferred storage heaters over a gas central heating system but there's less disruption doing the work that's for sure plus gas is three times cheaper than electricity and that will probably never change.
mandryka
pfm Member
Yes I was about to add that, it was indeed well insulated and only a little flat. It was also an all electric flat so there wasn’t the option for gas. But it was silent and warm and affordable and when I moved to a wet system in another house, I was appalled by how noisy gas central heating can be, and how much maintenance is involved. Of course, I’m used to it now.
There's very little maintenance involved in a central heating system, boilers these days are very very reliable and they only really need a service/check annually but I regularly go to boilers and heating systems that have not been looked at in years and I'm talking ten years or more by which time often then it's time to replace the boiler especially if the punter hasn't spent a penny on the boiler in that amount of time cause they've managed to get out of dodge not paying a penny.
As ever it's all about money and how much the existing boiler cost to buy, if it cost about £500 or so and it chucks it after 6,7,8 or so years and out of warranty and the repair is going to be in the hundreds then it's a no brainer to advise the customer to replace it if however it cost £1500 new then I advise a repair even if the repair is hitting £500, not much different from cars in fact.
Sometimes it just better to bite the bullet and pay the dosh for the service I have customers Mike's age who ask for advice when replacing a boiler but one look at the system tells me the heating system needs replaced down to the age of the rads/pipe-work and so on so I could easily just say 'aye I'll replace the boiler and it will be X' but some of those people need the reassurance that when there's problems during a severe winter then can get someone out quickly cause they're vulnerable etc or that they don't end up in a situation like Mike's with some dodgy plumber taking £4k off them then filling a heating system with leak sealer to get rid of the customer so a complete new heating system is sometimes the best option for some people.
I know BG can be terrible sometimes, it's well documented, but they can't just eff off and leave someone in the lurch.
BTW, there is absolutely no way I'd have a warm air heating system let alone allow tenants to have one, warm air units are absolute death traps if the warm unit isn't properly maintained, ie if the heat exchanger cracks then you can end up with carbon monoxide pumping out through the vents, don't get me wrong the WAUs are good and JS are a very good company but maintenance has to be good and done by someone who knows those units inside out preferably by JS themselves if they offer that service.
simon g
Older, wiser but no longer retired
It seems that many here set their thermostats very low. The below article needs to be considered. !8C is the 'tipping point' at which low temperature adversely affects the body. 18C is an ideal bedroom temp at night (i.e. when in bed). OK, sweaters, etc, can be worn, but folk need to be aware of the insidious effects of temp </= 18C. Those of older age (many of whom on here, myself included) need to pay attention to this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63602501
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63602501