Dedicated Mains / Memera / Roy K Riches

[S-Man]

Post it, and let's see.

I suspect I'm wasting my time, there's no theory, but here are a few thoughts:

RKR's recommendations seem to be based on the following claimed technical improvements:

A/ Lower impedance supply
B/ Less intermodulation of supplies between each item of hifi and by other equipment powered by the ring main
C/ Clean earth

(Please add to this list if I have missed any)

Can we define 3 topologies of mains supply (for the hifi) as follows?

1/ Ring main
2/ Separate spur
3/ RKR i.e. multiple spurs with the fewest fuses, connectors and switches in circuit.


Personally I think option 2 is the optimum - in terms of benefit versus cost and hassle.
However one possible, and apparently unrecognised, benefit of option 3 is that by having long spurs the earth impedance between each item of equipment is raised . The ground connection effected by the interconnects is then relatively lower impedance compared to the earth impedance through the mains connection.

Because it's easier to daydream than to actually do something, I have not tried deliberately raising the mains earth impedance between units (of course there is potentially a safety issue here as well) to see what effect it has on the sound. Another possibility is to lower the earth impedance from one item to another, this could be done by connecting the mains earth to one item only, then running an earth braid to each item starred off the 1st item.

 

[Marco]

Oh dear...

Mike

 

[Markus S]

Michael, what exactly is your positive contribution to this thread?

 

[Marco]

Markus,

My positive contribution is to try and end this pointless never-ending debate about "RKR mains" by highlighting the futility of arguing with someone that’s never in a month of Sundays going to agree with you. The same points are being reiterated over and over with no progress being made, and it’s tedious in the extreme. However I realise that better people than me have in the past tried and failed to stop the nonsense, so I'll bow out of this particular discussion.

Mike

 

[jonnoshore]

I suspect I'm wasting my time, there's no theory, but here are a few thoughts:

RKR's recommendations seem to be based on the following claimed technical improvements:

A/ Lower impedance supply
B/ Less intermodulation of supplies between each item of hifi and by other equipment powered by the ring main
C/ Clean earth

(Please add to this list if I have missed any)

Can we define 3 topologies of mains supply (for the hifi) as follows?

1/ Ring main
2/ Separate spur
3/ RKR i.e. multiple spurs with the fewest fuses, connectors and switches in circuit.


Personally I think option 2 is the optimum - in terms of benefit versus cost and hassle.
However one possible, and apparently unrecognised, benefit of option 3 is that by having long spurs the earth impedance between each item of equipment is raised . The ground connection effected by the interconnects is then relatively lower impedance compared to the earth impedance through the mains connection.

Because it's easier to daydream than to actually do something, I have not tried deliberately raising the mains earth impedance between units (of course there is potentially a safety issue here as well) to see what effect it has on the sound. Another possibility is to lower the earth impedance from one item to another, this could be done by connecting the mains earth to one item only, then running an earth braid to each item starred off the 1st item.

I think A and especially C are important in my setup B only has 3 metres of 10mm flex 1.5m down each spur.

A
I took this to the extreme with my system and installed 35mm tails under the floor to the Memera unit (130 amp cable) a first for a RKR system and use 10mm flex for each spur rather than 6mm. Overkill most likely... I just thought I'd do it once and forget about it...

B
Each of my spurs are short 1.5m (basically the flex) from each piece of kit, but is ~12m+ away from the other CU and the rest of the house.

C
Before I did my earth spike I had an issue when I plugged my AV amp (on a different spur) into the Naim system for the AV front channels... it seemed to sit on the sound... after the earth spike. No effect from plugging the AV through the Naim. I think I had a weird earth Triangle going on... Now you can't hear the AV cable being connected.

I also imagine that at each connection, where there is an imedance change, there is a point at which the 'noise' can reflect on the cables, if electrical / acoustic analogies link like in other areas and the less connections you have and make each as low impedance as possible you will get less sonic imprint from your mains... I know 1D duct acoustics from my job (NVH in car air induction ) and any x-sectional step change creates a reflection point for standing waves in a system... Not sure if there is any analogy but I was prepared to take a blind leap of faith with RKR install and now am glad I did.
I however could be talking complete twoddle too

It was approx £300 worth of electrical stuff relative to a system worth ~£6k secondhand (so a 5% outlay not too much really). I now feel the system is performing as it should, before I always felt the CD or the Pre were letting the side down. CD2 and 102 in an active system, I'd still like to upgrade these two items at some point but am happy with the sound for now so am in no rush...

 

[Laurie Saunders]

Laurie,

You made four consecutive posts (before deleting them) all indicating your burning desire to continue this pointless (age-old) argument. Incidentally, you're not the only one guilty; there are others.


To bang your bloody heads together like an adult would do to children fighting in a playground!

Mike

Well Mike, it`s a free country......but your arrogance and pompous self importance are quite breathataking.....you must have one huge ego

You may consider it (this discussion) pointless, though it seems to be holding you attention well enough. And at least it provides a vehicle for you to display your wonderful wit. Isn`t that point enough?

laurie



laurie

 

[Markus S]

Laurie, Michael has retired from the discussion.

Mains discussions are tiresome enough (we've only had them about 200 times I believe) without metadiscussions about why the discussion is pointless or not, and meta-metadiscussions about the style of the metadiscussion.

Either this thread goes back on topic or it will be closed.

Markus - moderating

 

[kasperhauser]

I'd be grateful if any knowledgeable sort would supply a quick answer about whether any of this applies to the US situation. 'Yes', 'no', or 'sort of' will be sufficient detail.

(I'm building a house at the moment, and if there are issues to take up with the electricians, the time is approaching.)

 

[Alex S]

In your position its certainly worth doing something. I found 95.26% of any improvement in the first separate spur, so fit one - 6mm or 10mm - toss a coin.

 

[John]

I'd be grateful if any knowledgeable sort would supply a quick answer about whether any of this applies to the US situation. 'Yes', 'no', or 'sort of' will be sufficient detail.

(I'm building a house at the moment, and if there are issues to take up with the electricians, the time is approaching.)

I'd have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit installed for the hi-fi. Make sure you have a 200 Amp service to the home.

 

[martin clark]

And you get a free pass on the Holy War because U.S domestic wiring is all radial circuits ('spurs') anyway - no rings.

 

[Laurie Saunders]

Laurie,

You made four consecutive posts (before deleting them) all indicating your burning desire to continue this pointless (age-old) argument. Incidentally, you're not the only one guilty; there are others.



My point being -- why on earth bother arguing with someone that is NEVER going to agree with you?

It's quite clear (after 5 years+ of debate!) that Paul Ranson et al will never see the merit of "RKR mains" no matter how much you try to dismiss their opinion. All you're doing is going round and round and round in circles achieving nothing. I also direct the same thing to Paul Ranson and people on his side of the fence: why not just leave those that enjoy their hi-fi with "RKR mains" to get on with it? It doesn't matter if you don't believe their claims. For them it works -- end of story. It’s them that have to listen to it.

If only people would take a leaf out of Andy C's book:



Indeed!



To bang your bloody heads together like an adult would do to children fighting in a playground!

Mike

Mike

Your post is very telling. What`s YOUR problem?

"Why on earth bother arguing with someone who is never going to agree"

well.......who knows...and in any case, it passes the time. It also seems to provide plenty to interest you , judging by the amount of time you have spent reading and posting here.

"You`re not the only guilty one here..."

Guilty of what? Are you a judge? (or some other superior creature ...)


"to bang your bloody heads together like children..."

Now now...no violence please

Interesting...so you see us as misbehaving children who ought to behave better.......


As Alex put it, are you a schoolmaster?


Your whole approach is hard to understand......you complain about postings , yet they seem to provide you with something to fill your time with. It seems that you are the one who has a problem with the thread so why don`t you just go and do something you would find more useful?..and let those who want to, waste their time arguing in circles, if they so choose




Or is it perhaps that you can use this thread as a vehicle to display your outstanding wit and superiority

laurie

 

[Blzebub]

To be fair to RKR the rip he used does have distortion.

Paul

I do enjoy your jokes, Paul.

 

[lordsummit]

Laurie you've been told once already. Michael has retired from this discussion. As Markus said either we put the thread back on track or we close it. These discussions like certain others have been done to death, and almost everyone knows where they stand. Anymore completely off topic posting and arguments about arguments will lead to us locking it.
Richard (moderating)


Kasperhauser, if I was in your position, I'd have a separate spur simply because I could. It would make sense in your posisiton.

 

[kasperhauser]

Kasperhauser, if I was in your position, I'd have a separate spur simply because I could.

Cheers, that seems to be the consensus. I suppose that means I need to decide where the system will be located. Hmm. Thankfully (?) two entire walls in the main living area are all windows, so that makes the choice a bit easier.

Thanks all.

 

[strummer]

Anymore completely off topic posting and arguments about arguments will lead to us locking it.
Richard (moderating)

Why do my thread always get locked?

It’s not me, I’m not the trouble maker


Anyway, I don’t know whether one CU sounds better than another one. I don’t have time to “listen” to Consumer Units & Interconnects & Racks!!!! I’m just thankful for people like Roy who are daft (I mean dedicated) enough to do it, so we don’t have to. He is retired, so he has time.

I just know that every improvement Roy suggested seamed to add about a HiCap’s worth of space/clarity. Now considering the cost of a HiCap against Roy’s suggestions, it makes good sense to me.

Fatter cables, proper solid connections, hard-wiring…..it’s not difficult to see how the impedance might drop over a Plug in a Switched Socket.

I’m happy with it. Thanks again Roy!

 

[dave]

I'd have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit installed for the hi-fi. Make sure you have a 200 Amp service to the home.

...and buy a fifty buck Wiremold powerstrip from your Naim dealer. A month or so after you're familiar with the sound, try moving the breaker to the other phase and and see which phase sounds better. Your electrician can show you how to do this easily and safely.

...job done.

 

[Fox]

Can anyone with RKR installs tell me if they have noticed a perceptible drop in hiss produced while an amp is idling? (No preamp volume)... I am not interested in any claimed musical benefits but anything that drops the ambient noise floor even by a small degree is worthwhile.

 

[Laurie Saunders]

Laurie, Michael has retired from the discussion.

Mains discussions are tiresome enough (we've only had them about 200 times I believe) without metadiscussions about why the discussion is pointless or not, and meta-metadiscussions about the style of the metadiscussion.

Either this thread goes back on topic or it will be closed.

Markus - moderating

I cannot disagree, though my point remains, viz I cannot understand the objections of those who complain about it.......they are free to simply do something else.....that seems logical to me

PS

... to quote: "The lion betrays itself by its claw....." (Referring to Sir Isaac Newton who tried to disguise his true identity but was immediately recognisedby his brilliant style of mathematical analysis)

Here I refer to Mike Stock, whose inimitable style of posting brings to mind another famous individual (on several forums) ....do we have here a case of mistaken identity?........the word "troll" springs to mind

laurie

 

[jonnoshore]

I'd have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit installed for the hi-fi. Make sure you have a 200 Amp service to the home.

If you are taking what RKR has done for the UK to the USA, I would have a 20+ amp circuit PER piece of hifi and terminate each with a wattgate (no plugs or extra contacts) straight into each piece of HiFi... If they do larger than 20 Amps use the largest available with corresponding ampage cable to each wattgate. I spoke with Roy about this last night and he has 70+ people around the globe, not just UK who are doing this and finding benefit. Even places with spurts only like USA and europe.