Cranage 2023
- Thread starter hifinutt
- Start date
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Well, I'm with you really. That's why I said "try".
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
The discussion about music choice is interesting. It makes me wonder whether a display of classic albums which large numbers of people know well, and a hands-up vote at each change would be the best way to handle it. I know from Bristol that it's a disappointment when you put on a record thinking "they're going to love this" and the room empties. Even if you offer a limited selection of ten or so albums, a hands-up vote will probably only satisfy a minority. Sadly I think my next show is going to have to be Fleetwood Mac, Dire Straits, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin etc.. I might start a poll.
I think the tendency of 'show music' to be acoustic, intimate and with a limited number of instruments is nothing more sinister than trying to help people to judge whether the system sounds realistic, i.e. timbrally and dynamically accurate. We all know what a double bass is supposed to sound like at five yards. Classical is more difficult because a lot depends on the auditorium and microphone technique. Deadmaus is great, but wtf is it supposed to sound like?
I think the tendency of 'show music' to be acoustic, intimate and with a limited number of instruments is nothing more sinister than trying to help people to judge whether the system sounds realistic, i.e. timbrally and dynamically accurate. We all know what a double bass is supposed to sound like at five yards. Classical is more difficult because a lot depends on the auditorium and microphone technique. Deadmaus is great, but wtf is it supposed to sound like?
Tony L
Administrator
It still doesn’t explain the bonkers VTA! It looks so far out tracking warps would be impeded. It just has to be wrong. I don’t believe it can be by design as it defies logic.
The only other thing I can think of is the cart suspension has partially collapsed and that was a desperate last-ditch attempt to get the thing to play in the dem without bottoming-out!
I’m certainly curious as to what the thinking was here.
The only other thing I can think of is the cart suspension has partially collapsed and that was a desperate last-ditch attempt to get the thing to play in the dem without bottoming-out!
I’m certainly curious as to what the thinking was here.
You're utterly relentless...
Mike Hughes
pfm Member
And…
Some interesting points here I think. Having once helped a dealer set up a room I’m fully conversant with the complexities and the many long discussions about exact layout etc. in compromised circumstances. I’m equally conversant with the audio media perspective on things which, broadly speaking, is that these are great events for them and hardened audiophiles but they continue to do a poor job of enticing new people in. The response on here, which is largely to go on the defensive and say how great it was for them or to attack anyone saying otherwise is instructive in that respect.
I’m not sure “it’s easy enough to criticise” is a relevant comment in that context. Actually nowadays the opposite is true. Online people are driven to extremes. There is no middle ground of sensible discussion where someone feels able to say “yeah actually that’s an interesting point. I’ll look at that.” It’s all attack or attack the poster. It’s worth reading from my comments onwards with a dispassionate eye. The range of responses intended to kill the discussion; polarise or rally others to attack is interesting.
I will for example stand by my point about display banners - their content and location - as it’s a point borne out by people I know who went to the show one of whom works in the major conference industry - but here that point gets drowned with a range of responses which are bizarre. The actual point gets lost.
I’m liking the music discussion element of this as that is largely a sensible discussion of pros and cons. As a contribution to that and without naming names I went to a RMAF sometime back and noted
- multiple manufacturers and distributors advertising up front about bringing your own music.
- detailed suggestions on how to do that.
- some manufacturers specifying happy hours i.e. either something like a two hour slot where they’d play anything from the audience and people would be able to enter knowing that was taking place, or, specifying up front that hour one would focus on classical, acoustic, jazz (you could still bring your own for that time period) whereas hour two would be electronica etc. Worked brilliantly. Over here we are literally decades behind in thinking about what might be possible/attractive/bring new people in.
Wholly agree that you would in theory be pressed to get a purchasing quality of demonstration but then this is also a movable feast. How many in attendance brought and used the very room correction electronics they’re keen to sell us? How many brought the many portable options for room correction?
Finally, after three decades of going to shows I take on board the bleed through comment but as a show attendee it’s always there to a degree but, for me, has rarely been the predominant factor in a poor room experience.
Some interesting points here I think. Having once helped a dealer set up a room I’m fully conversant with the complexities and the many long discussions about exact layout etc. in compromised circumstances. I’m equally conversant with the audio media perspective on things which, broadly speaking, is that these are great events for them and hardened audiophiles but they continue to do a poor job of enticing new people in. The response on here, which is largely to go on the defensive and say how great it was for them or to attack anyone saying otherwise is instructive in that respect.
I’m not sure “it’s easy enough to criticise” is a relevant comment in that context. Actually nowadays the opposite is true. Online people are driven to extremes. There is no middle ground of sensible discussion where someone feels able to say “yeah actually that’s an interesting point. I’ll look at that.” It’s all attack or attack the poster. It’s worth reading from my comments onwards with a dispassionate eye. The range of responses intended to kill the discussion; polarise or rally others to attack is interesting.
I will for example stand by my point about display banners - their content and location - as it’s a point borne out by people I know who went to the show one of whom works in the major conference industry - but here that point gets drowned with a range of responses which are bizarre. The actual point gets lost.
I’m liking the music discussion element of this as that is largely a sensible discussion of pros and cons. As a contribution to that and without naming names I went to a RMAF sometime back and noted
- multiple manufacturers and distributors advertising up front about bringing your own music.
- detailed suggestions on how to do that.
- some manufacturers specifying happy hours i.e. either something like a two hour slot where they’d play anything from the audience and people would be able to enter knowing that was taking place, or, specifying up front that hour one would focus on classical, acoustic, jazz (you could still bring your own for that time period) whereas hour two would be electronica etc. Worked brilliantly. Over here we are literally decades behind in thinking about what might be possible/attractive/bring new people in.
Wholly agree that you would in theory be pressed to get a purchasing quality of demonstration but then this is also a movable feast. How many in attendance brought and used the very room correction electronics they’re keen to sell us? How many brought the many portable options for room correction?
Finally, after three decades of going to shows I take on board the bleed through comment but as a show attendee it’s always there to a degree but, for me, has rarely been the predominant factor in a poor room experience.
Subharmonicon
pfm Member
I had an idea for a room, one of the large rooms, using ATC studio monitors where you have a pro mixing engineer mix a well known song on the spot probably in protools thru some great DA converters. This would be very interesting as people get to hear the sound of the raw multitracks being tuned in and eq’d to make the finished product. You would be able to solo all the separate instruments and hear the interplay between them and build the mix up. A good showcase for ATC and also insights into the closest approach to the actual master. Far more interesting than the stock boring show tracks that are currently played.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I think there's a more general point about criticism here. Without criticism, improvement is usually slower or even in reverse. "Happiness writes white". I am generally far too critical a person and that's something which is hard for my wife and children to endure. But I'm quite certain that a doggedly critical approach is one of the crucial weapons in trying to achieve excellence in almost any sphere, from sport to art to science.
Putting up with "other people's moaning" is the price we pay for the freedom to speak out about the less good as well as the better. Even though I've only attended very few, I agree with many of the points made about audio shows, presentation, room systems, and how to improve the experience. Information of all kinds is not always provided easily to the casual room visitor. In my case I habitually criticise what I enjoy. I can't help it.
Keep up the good work!
Putting up with "other people's moaning" is the price we pay for the freedom to speak out about the less good as well as the better. Even though I've only attended very few, I agree with many of the points made about audio shows, presentation, room systems, and how to improve the experience. Information of all kinds is not always provided easily to the casual room visitor. In my case I habitually criticise what I enjoy. I can't help it.
Keep up the good work!
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Interesting idea - given the frequent discussions on the pros and cons of different mastering approaches perhaps a demonstration by a mastering engineer would be informative.
palasr
>>>...<<<
If I had to guess, this is all about compensating to achieve the mystical 92° stylus rake angle (SRA). I've seen tonearms raised by even more - which speaks poorly of the cartridge manufacturer. Alas, changes in record thickness alone are going to blow all these carefully achieved setups right to hell (you know, USB microscope, angle calculation software, etc....check out the Fremer link: https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...icroscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra). It can be a bit obsessive.
I believe in careful setup, using a mirrored arc protractor and adjusting azimuth and VTA to get it close, and letting my ears fine tune the rest.
Subharmonicon
pfm Member
Yes, I feel a demo from a mastering engineer might be a lot tougher because of the very small and fine adjustments they make, a lot of people wouldn’t be able to hear any difference due to bleed from other exhibits and talking but an actual mix from multitrack done in real time could definitely work I feel. And people would be more excited by the mix being built up and vibe etc. the engineer could also talk thru his technique and ideas for certain mix moves whilst he’s doing it. Would be great fun!
littleaudioco
Trade: the little audio company
Many seem to think that loud is impressive. It can be, with the right equipment…
littleaudioco
Trade: the little audio company
Exhibitors try and show the kit off to the best of their abilities, and that includes the music. They’re not going to put on heavy rock which generally isnt up to audiophile standards. Do you know what happens when you put something heavy on at these shows? Either a pensioner walks in and walks straight back out because rock isn’t their thing as it’s just a noise to them, or audiophiles walk in the room and think it doesn’t sound very good because the whole system is being held back by the recording. It’s a lose/lose situation for the exhibitor. You can’t please everyone unfortunately.
in fact, too many people walk into a room (sometimes as far as the doorframe) and linger for a few seconds - if the room isn’t playing what they want to hear, they’re gone. Either that or they’ve assessed the sound already from their position and decided whether they like it or not. I don’t really understand why people travel to shows, and don’t visit ALL of the rooms. This is a once a year event, and you’ve invested time and money to visit, and the exhibitors have invested a huge amount of money and time doing the same,
I’d say 90% of the sound at a show is determined by the room. All rooms create (different) issues, and it’s whether the exhibitor addresses them well or not. Smaller speakers tend to come across better at shows with average/small rooms as they work better - putting a floorstander in a small room invariably doesn’t turn out too well without a ton of room treatment or placing them in the middle of the room, unless the speaker is designed to be “room friendly”. And then it’s down to the albums/tracks you play to suit the room and volume level you play at. It’s all about choosing the right speakers for the room, but an exhibitor won’t know how that room is if it’s their first time, so won’t have any valuable information until they get there, although they’ll know the dimensions.
Just observations from working many shows
littleaudioco
Trade: the little audio company
These rooms give you a snapshot, a taster, of what a speaker (or system) is about. ALL rooms are different. In your room, they may sound the same, have too little bass, or may sound evenly balanced. Only one true way to find out. It’s why I choose speakers that have been designed with room acoustics in mind. Far more predictable results, especially in awkward rooms.
littleaudioco
Trade: the little audio company
To be fair, it’s not usually much better when they do..
The choice of music is always a tough one. Many may moan about the usual Eagles/Pink Floyd/Dire Straits etc, but for a lot of people, especially in the age group of the majority of attendees, is a reference point for them, they know some of these albums inside out, and may be one of their favourite albums. Exhibitors playing music visitors have never heard of provides very little useful information.
I heard a lot of rooms playing a lot of electronics music, which I personally feel is a bit of a cop out on the exhibitor’s part. Most electronics music is well recorded, fine, but there’s usually zero real instruments so no one really knows what it is supposed to sound like. Jazz etc uses real instruments, and therefore, provides a lot of information to the listener as to whether the system is truly capable of reproducing real music. Electronic music is good for showing off a system’s capabilities - how loud it can go, how deep the bass can go etc, but that’s not really why people go to shows. And this is particularly true of rooms using subwoofers. Electronic music will come across really well, but gives you zero information on whether or not the speaker and sub have been seamlessly integrated.
Again, just observations
littleaudioco
Trade: the little audio company
True. It’s times like that you’re tempted to put on something like McCartney’s frog song or something… “well, you said ‘anything’!!”
although, I do the same when I sit down to assess something a rep has brought in and set up for me to listen to - trying to think of the best track to play first just makes you go blank…
Heckyman
pfm Member
Can't speak for others, but in my case I attended the show for general inspirational/aspirational purposes: to hear good music played on systems that are obviously better or at least different to what I have at home.
Despite "passing" on some rooms for reasons of the music playing at the time and/or the system itself not sounding all that great, we still couldn't make it around all rooms on the Sunday — the "budget" is actually only around 5 mins per room — easily blown if you linger a bit in a few of the rooms you like or stop for a chat.
In any case, if — as mentioned above — the show sound is 90% the room, what are you really learning about the kit? Moreover, there are so many combinations of sources, amps, speakers, cables. One exhibitor we spoke to admitted he didn't think the TT was good enough to demonstrate the speakers (presumably his boss had chosen it?), which were sounding nothing like he'd heard them at his home!
Despite "passing" on some rooms for reasons of the music playing at the time and/or the system itself not sounding all that great, we still couldn't make it around all rooms on the Sunday — the "budget" is actually only around 5 mins per room — easily blown if you linger a bit in a few of the rooms you like or stop for a chat.
In any case, if — as mentioned above — the show sound is 90% the room, what are you really learning about the kit? Moreover, there are so many combinations of sources, amps, speakers, cables. One exhibitor we spoke to admitted he didn't think the TT was good enough to demonstrate the speakers (presumably his boss had chosen it?), which were sounding nothing like he'd heard them at his home!
yespsb
pfm Member
Richard I hope your taking the Micky with the albums above, to me they are everything the Supatrac isn't. They are old, cliched and done to death. Fresh design ideas need fresh music, not that predictable stuff.
keiron99
pfm Member
Fair point but I wasn't talking metal, just maybe some classic rock like The Who, Tull, Led Zep, Rush, Genesis, Yes, whatever. Since we've been stereotyping on this thread, from the look of the audience, that's the kind of thing your average middle aged, middle class white dude is into, no?