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Coronavirus - the new strain XIX

Discussion in 'off topic' started by hc25036, Jun 18, 2021.

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  1. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    Yes it's absolutely critical to understand that the vaccination programme is about the distribution of protection across the population rather than the precise level of individual protection.
  2. tiggers

    tiggers pfm Member

    Seconded, it's like a crusade and it's utterly tiresome!
    Spike55 likes this.
  3. hc25036

    hc25036 pfm Member

    No criticism or offence intended - I’m from the scientist paramilitary wing on this thread!
  4. hc25036

    hc25036 pfm Member

    We need @Debs to confirm this, but antibody levels falling over time is normal - otherwise the body would be wasting energy producing antibodies continuously after every little infection. What happens is that special ‘B’ cells (help @Debs !) retain the ability to produce the antibodies rapidly if they are required again. I wonder if the UCL study is being misread somewhere…..
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  5. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    I've seen the broadcasts: they're a mix of sober commentary and proselytisation. Their function within the alt-covid ecosystem is more important than the actual content, which in the end is reducible to memes (dangerous experiment; close the borders; infecting yr children etc.). As for your mate Dave I'll judge him by what he does and says rather than his credentials. Here's one of the things he says (mission statement of The Citizens campaign group, of which iSage is one off-shoot):


    These are fundamentally unserious people.
  6. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    It does make that point but it also says

    “However, it’s clear that ongoing protection from vaccines for months to years after immunisation can’t be assumed, hence the importance of ongoing vigilance for any increase in breakthrough infections.”

    The Israeli report this morning was also indicating that vaccine breakthrough was at least partly to blame for the current surge there.
    hc25036 likes this.
  7. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    What's the Israeli report?
  8. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Well, I can dream, can’t I?

    Is this the 'T' cells I've read about?
  9. hc25036

    hc25036 pfm Member

    This is so far back in my education, but ‘memory B cells’ is in my mind. Probably called something else by now, and the immune response was something that caused fear and trembling to undergraduate biochemists in my day!

    T cells are the ones that chew up (technical term!) infected cells that are marked by antibodies, but also have other functions like calling for help (ditto)….
  10. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    The weekly PHE surveillance report is here

    Overall case rates increased in week 28. Case rates increased in all age groups, regions and ethnic groups. Overall Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 positivity increased compared to the previous week, most notably in younger age groups.

    COVID-19 hospitalisations increased in week 28. Deaths with COVID-19 increased
    slightly in the most recent week.

    The map is on p14 and there has been yet another change of scale.

    There were 770 new outbreaks

    249 incidents were from care homes where 193 had at least one linked case that
    tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 where test results were available

    278 incidents were from educational settings where 201 had at least one linked case
    that tested positive for SARS-CoV-2
  11. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    Seanm likes this.
  12. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod


    Aye, T cells are also a line of defence against cancer. They can detect neoantigens on the surface of cancerous tumour cells, then open a can of whoop-ass on them.

    hc25036 likes this.
  13. davidsrsb

    davidsrsb pfm Member

    I haven't seen much about how well the 80+ cohort develop antibodies and for how long.
    A frequent complaint about the Chinese vaccines has been lack of testing of the over 60s.

    The UK is the test lab these days as so many elderly vaccinated early
  14. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    Reports I've seen from Israel indicate that the Pfizer vaccination is less effective against the Delta variant in terms of preventing infection and spread but the pfizer vaccine is still effective against severe illness and hospitalization.

    Israel is planning booster shots, but only for the immunocompromised.
    Seanm likes this.
  15. Big Tabs

    Big Tabs “telling it like it isn’t...”

    The hospital ward that my The Daughter works on is apparently on Channel 4 this evening.
    I have no idea if The Daughter will be in the piece, although I doubt it. (she is relatively new to the unit)
    The Daughter works on a respiratory High Dependency Unit (HDU) which cares for people with C19. (and other respiratory issues, when it has the chance)

    I will record it, as there may be an opportunity to gather evidence with which to annoy/please The Daughter. She is distinctly Left-Wing so she will have a go, given half the chance.
    (she protested at the Newbury Bypass protest at the age of 10. Strong-Willed, is too weak an expression)
  16. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

  17. mandryka

    mandryka pfm Member

    This is just the language of manifestos

  18. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Really hard to know what to do with that. The reporter himself notes that:

    "I should emphasize that these are all infections from the last 3 weeks. This analysis is NOT sufficient to argue that the reason for breakthrough infections is waning immunity with time. Its not a study but an internal document."

    But also:

    "Yet most Israeli officials dealing with the growing outbreak here are convinced that waning immunity of the vaccinated is at least part of the reason for what we are seeing."

    Interpreting stuff like this requires a great deal of contextual knowledge. If it were the UK I'd have a feel for the people, platforms, agendas and so on. Without that I just have to put it to one side and wait for more. Maximum caution with this one.
  19. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    39 906 cases and 84 deaths today
  20. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    It's the language of fantasy startups. Sub, sub-Cummings: the cringe factor is very high. But the important thing is the underlying philosophy, which is that Disruption is Good. It's consistent with their other rhetoric (boasting about have "wreaked havoc") and the methods that they've been using - particularly in the last couple of days (amplification of fake news; misrepresentation of and personalised attacks on individual scientists). Call me old fashioned but I don't think this is the best way to go about influencing public health policy or communicating science to the public.
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