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Coronavirus - the new strain XIX

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And the vaccines don't provide 100% coverage to start with: more like 60 to 90%, depending on which vaccine and which study you look at.
Other findings suggest that natural infections generate 10 times fewer antibodies than 2 shots of vaccination.

Yes it's absolutely critical to understand that the vaccination programme is about the distribution of protection across the population rather than the precise level of individual protection.
 
It is very difficult to determine the only correct opinion. It may be really inappropriate to vaccinate children against COVID or to use not vector vaccines for vaccination of children, but vaccines of the type to which mankind has become accustomed by and large. I am not an infectious disease specialist and not a doctor at all, I only voice my thoughts.

No criticism or offence intended - I’m from the scientist paramilitary wing on this thread!
 
"Scientists have backed proposals for Covid boosters in the autumn after blood tests on hundreds of people revealed that protective antibodies can wane substantially within weeks of second vaccine shots being given."

The UCL Virus Watch study found that antibodies generated by two doses of the Oxford/AstraZeneca and Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines started to wane as early as six weeks after the second shot, in some cases falling more than 50% over 10 weeks.

This, coupled with the evidence from Israel, suggests that if you had your 2 doses early on then the message has to be to very careful out there just now...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-as-study-finds-post-jab-falls-in-antibodies

We need @Debs to confirm this, but antibody levels falling over time is normal - otherwise the body would be wasting energy producing antibodies continuously after every little infection. What happens is that special ‘B’ cells (help @Debs !) retain the ability to produce the antibodies rapidly if they are required again. I wonder if the UCL study is being misread somewhere…..
 
Sean, you didn't see any of the iSage broadcasts and neither did you know who Sir David King was. Give it a rest mate.
I've seen the broadcasts: they're a mix of sober commentary and proselytisation. Their function within the alt-covid ecosystem is more important than the actual content, which in the end is reducible to memes (dangerous experiment; close the borders; infecting yr children etc.). As for your mate Dave I'll judge him by what he does and says rather than his credentials. Here's one of the things he says (mission statement of The Citizens campaign group, of which iSage is one off-shoot):

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These are fundamentally unserious people.
 
We need @Debs to confirm this, but antibody levels falling over time is normal - otherwise the body would be wasting energy producing antibodies continuously after every little infection. What happens is that special ‘B’ cells (help @Debs !) retain the ability to produce the antibodies rapidly if they are required again. I wonder if the UCL study is being misread somewhere…..

It does make that point but it also says

“However, it’s clear that ongoing protection from vaccines for months to years after immunisation can’t be assumed, hence the importance of ongoing vigilance for any increase in breakthrough infections.”

The Israeli report this morning was also indicating that vaccine breakthrough was at least partly to blame for the current surge there.
 
It does make that point but it also says

“However, it’s clear that ongoing protection from vaccines for months to years after immunisation can’t be assumed, hence the importance of ongoing vigilance for any increase in breakthrough infections.”

The Israeli report this morning was also indicating that vaccine breakthrough was at least partly to blame for the current surge
What's the Israeli report?
 
We need @Debs to confirm this, but antibody levels falling over time is normal - otherwise the body would be wasting energy producing antibodies continuously after every little infection. What happens is that special ‘B’ cells (help @Debs !) retain the ability to produce the antibodies rapidly if they are required again. I wonder if the UCL study is being misread somewhere…..
Is this the 'T' cells I've read about?
 
Is this the 'T' cells I've read about?

This is so far back in my education, but ‘memory B cells’ is in my mind. Probably called something else by now, and the immune response was something that caused fear and trembling to undergraduate biochemists in my day!

T cells are the ones that chew up (technical term!) infected cells that are marked by antibodies, but also have other functions like calling for help (ditto)….
 
The weekly PHE surveillance report is here

Overall case rates increased in week 28. Case rates increased in all age groups, regions and ethnic groups. Overall Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 positivity increased compared to the previous week, most notably in younger age groups.

COVID-19 hospitalisations increased in week 28. Deaths with COVID-19 increased
slightly in the most recent week.

The map is on p14 and there has been yet another change of scale.

There were 770 new outbreaks

249 incidents were from care homes where 193 had at least one linked case that
tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 where test results were available

278 incidents were from educational settings where 201 had at least one linked case
that tested positive for SARS-CoV-2
 
hc,

Aye, T cells are also a line of defence against cancer. They can detect neoantigens on the surface of cancerous tumour cells, then open a can of whoop-ass on them.

joe
 
249 incidents were from care homes where 193 had at least one linked case that
tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 where test results were available
I haven't seen much about how well the 80+ cohort develop antibodies and for how long.
A frequent complaint about the Chinese vaccines has been lack of testing of the over 60s.

The UK is the test lab these days as so many elderly vaccinated early
 
The hospital ward that my The Daughter works on is apparently on Channel 4 this evening.
I have no idea if The Daughter will be in the piece, although I doubt it. (she is relatively new to the unit)
The Daughter works on a respiratory High Dependency Unit (HDU) which cares for people with C19. (and other respiratory issues, when it has the chance)

I will record it, as there may be an opportunity to gather evidence with which to annoy/please The Daughter. She is distinctly Left-Wing so she will have a go, given half the chance.
(she protested at the Newbury Bypass protest at the age of 10. Strong-Willed, is too weak an expression)
 
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These are fundamentally unserious people.

This is just the language of manifestos

the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

Working Men of All Countries, Unite!
 
Really hard to know what to do with that. The reporter himself notes that:

"I should emphasize that these are all infections from the last 3 weeks. This analysis is NOT sufficient to argue that the reason for breakthrough infections is waning immunity with time. Its not a study but an internal document."

But also:

"Yet most Israeli officials dealing with the growing outbreak here are convinced that waning immunity of the vaccinated is at least part of the reason for what we are seeing."

Interpreting stuff like this requires a great deal of contextual knowledge. If it were the UK I'd have a feel for the people, platforms, agendas and so on. Without that I just have to put it to one side and wait for more. Maximum caution with this one.
 
This is just the language of manifestos
It's the language of fantasy startups. Sub, sub-Cummings: the cringe factor is very high. But the important thing is the underlying philosophy, which is that Disruption is Good. It's consistent with their other rhetoric (boasting about have "wreaked havoc") and the methods that they've been using - particularly in the last couple of days (amplification of fake news; misrepresentation of and personalised attacks on individual scientists). Call me old fashioned but I don't think this is the best way to go about influencing public health policy or communicating science to the public.
 
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