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Component Priority: Speaker First, Source First, System Balance...?

Jazzer said:
I don’t doubt that you and your friends heard differences between various PSU add ons.

I simply believe that that is not the best way to build an amplifier and would not choose to buy a product that starts at the bottom of its performance capability with a view to upgrading it later.
It would constantly leave me with a feeling of dissatisfaction, but that is just me.
Linn Majik is a good example of this, even though I use an older Lp12.

I would prefer to save and buy a product that was designed to be the best it could be within its cost and design capabilities.
A properly designed and built in PSU, when applied to a power amp, will always be better than an add on, IMHO.
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Or it's a way to spread your investment out over time. You can afford the initial component now, then you improve it later with a better power supply. It all depends on how you and your gear are wired. ;)
 
There’s nothing to debate here. For the sake of simplicity lets call any deviation or corruption in the transcription, processing and transmission of the source material (eg a digital audio file or the analogue signal embedded in an LP) “distortion”. (And FFS lets not get into what that source material represents, it’s what we are trying to reproduce OK !). The amount of “distortion” introduced by loudspeakers is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than any other component in your hi fi system. So which component is going to have the biggest influence on the fidelity of reproduction of that source material?
 
I know from my tests (phones headphone jack > Aiyima A07 > Totem Hawk) > (MicroMega MyDAC > Rega Brio > Centrios 7 speakers)

Mike Hanson said:
I do understand that my expectations don't match everyone's. I desire extreme, involuntary engagement. When the system says "Boogie!" it's not an polite invitation, but rather a reflexive reaction. I like my system to shake me up like a dog shakes up a chew toy.
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That explains your feeling on the Totem Mite as it's one of the more laid back Totem models. Meanwhile, I almost never run my Royd Edens.

Tony L said:
I just do not like solid state amps into Klipsch, in fact Avondale-modded Naim driving Heresys is one of the worst sounds I’ve heard from a hi-fi system in my entire life!
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Wonder if it's the lack of output transformer. Perhaps one of the autoformer McIntosh amps would work.
 
Mike Hanson said:
Audiophiles often ponder/argue whether speakers are the most important component. I remember many debates on the Naim forum regarding whether "source first" was the best approach. Some insist the amplifier needs to be awesome to drive the speakers properly. Etc.

I have a Ferrum Wandla+Hypsos combo running in both my office and the family room. My Cary SLP-2002 is currently in the shop getting some maintenance and upgrades, so both Wandlas are being used as preamps. The Wandla is an exceptionally good DAC, but I would say its preamp section is merely "good enough" (definitely below the solid-state Benchmark HPA4 and the tubey Cary SLP-2002)

In my smallish office I have the Avondale SE400 and little Ergo IX. In my larger family room it's the lesser SE200 and Klipsch Cornwall.

The family room (with Cornwall) sounds bigger and faster, but my office system sounds better overall (overlooking obvious limitations like bass extension).

The moral of the story seems to be that as long as the speakers are "good enough" (including both sound quality and appropriate room size), then the amplifier is more important. More generally, I think we need to get to this elusive "good enough" level with all our components, at which point "Source First" probably makes more sense, then on down the stream.

Anyone care to add any thoughts and experience?
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What ye can afford, when ye can afford it and not "the order in which" some half-assed "audiophile/guru/business owner" tells ye when and how tae spend your money...:cool:
 
iansr said:
There’s nothing to debate here. For the sake of simplicity lets call any deviation or corruption in the transcription, processing and transmission of the source material (eg a digital audio file or the analogue signal embedded in an LP) “distortion”. (And FFS lets not get into what that source material represents, it’s what we are trying to reproduce OK !). The amount of “distortion” introduced by loudspeakers is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than any other component in your hi fi system. So which component is going to have the biggest influence on the fidelity of reproduction of that source material?
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Sorry but that’s logically not enough. If the amount of distortion for the loudspeakers is big but more or less equal between different speakers they will not have the biggest impact. That’s what exactly happens in reality.
 
Phyztech said:
Sorry but that’s logically not enough. If the amount of distortion for the loudspeakers is big but more or less equal between different speakers they will not have the biggest impact. That’s what exactly happens in reality.
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Even between speakers of identical topology the differences are quite large. Tonal balance, directivity, bass loading, harmonic and intermodulation distortion vary substantially.
 
tuga said:
Even between speakers of identical topology the differences are quite large. Tonal balance, directivity, bass loading, harmonic and intermodulation distortion vary substantially.
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Directivity alone will inevitably make an enormous difference to the soundfield at the listener's ears. (and even the height of the driver....). The fact that these points even have to be made....
The real point is that speakers really really do sound different. That means that you can't avoid realising that they have pros and cons. Now two things that sound identical. They of course are the same, only one is better!
 
music fiend said:
You've lost me there.
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Of good chunk of people will hear identical things as sounding different. Can't remember what the experimental figures are. Probably quoted by JJ in the talk mentioned in another thread.
 
James said:
Subs are not plug and play, if you want seamless integration with your main loudspeakers. Sure, they can produce loads of bass, but out-perform any speakers? I don't think so.
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I’ve got 4 subs in my room for home cinema but don’t use them for music listening. The timing integration just isn’t the same
 
adamdea said:
The real point is that speakers really really do sound different. That means that you can't avoid realising that they have pros and cons.
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It’s more sublime, speakers are designed for different implementation, for example I currently run Neat Petite Classic and Audio Note Ax-one in the same room. Formally they’re kind of the same class - similar dimensions and almost identical price. However one is designed to be free standing, another for the corners. How to compare properly? Those of ’measurements’ sect will probably put each in the chamber and mics 1m from the drivers. Will it tell anything valuable? No, you will still most probably prefer Neats as a free-standing and AN in the corners in real life. You can triple the price but if the speaker doesn’t suit the corners it just doesn’t..
 
Phyztech said:
It’s more sublime, speakers are designed for different implementation, for example I currently run Neat Petite Classic and Audio Note Ax-one in the same room. Formally they’re kind of the same class - similar dimensions and almost identical price. However one is designed to be free standing, another for the corners. How to compare properly? Those of ’measurements’ sect will probably put each in the chamber and mics 1m from the drivers. Will it tell anything valuable? No, you will still most probably prefer Neats as a free-standing and AN in the corners in real life. You can triple the price but if the speaker doesn’t suit the corners it just doesn’t..
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Good heavens -are speakers sometimes designed with different room placement in mind? Whatever next?
 
iansr said:
There’s nothing to debate here. For the sake of simplicity lets call any deviation or corruption in the transcription, processing and transmission of the source material (eg a digital audio file or the analogue signal embedded in an LP) “distortion”. (And FFS lets not get into what that source material represents, it’s what we are trying to reproduce OK !). The amount of “distortion” introduced by loudspeakers is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than any other component in your hi fi system. So which component is going to have the biggest influence on the fidelity of reproduction of that source material?
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It is hard to argue with the BIT IN CAPITALS.

If you had a £1000 streamer and a £1000 amp and £1000 speakers and suddenly found £30K to upgrade, would you really expect to spend it all of the speakers?

Would you also agree with the view that ‘X% different’ is not always the same as ‘X% better’, and that some errors in reproduction are more annoying/ noticeable than others?
 
adamdea said:
When the source first thing was made up, the source was basically a transducer (taking the record player as whole, although strictly that's the cartridge, which if I recall actually came third after TT and arm). Now, if you are talking about digital, it isn't.
In terms of actual physical reality, the answer is obvious. But this is a hobby for people who like buying stuff, so it goes something like this (with apologies for the lazy heteronormativity)
1. stuff I can actually afford and/or sneak past the mrs on a regular basis
2. stuff i can afford occasionally and need to explain to the mrs , but looks cool
3. expensive/heavy/ugly things which may lead to sleeping in the spare room.
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I’m definitely in the afford occasionally/looks cool camp…
 
Phyztech said:
Will it tell anything valuable? No, you will still most probably prefer Neats as a free-standing and AN in the corners in real life.
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Measurements may not tell you anything valuable but for those who can interpret them there is a lot of owrthy information including whether the speaker will work well freestanding or close to a wall.
The problem is not the measurements but the person looking at them.
Measurements don't replace listening, they complement it.
 
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