Component Priority: Speaker First, Source First, System Balance...?

[adamdea]

When the source first thing was made up, the source was basically a transducer (taking the record player as whole, although strictly that's the cartridge, which if I recall actually came third after TT and arm). Now, if you are talking about digital, it isn't.
In terms of actual physical reality, the answer is obvious. But this is a hobby for people who like buying stuff, so it goes something like this (with apologies for the lazy heteronormativity)
1. stuff I can actually afford and/or sneak past the mrs on a regular basis
2. stuff i can afford occasionally and need to explain to the mrs , but looks cool
3. expensive/heavy/ugly things which may lead to sleeping in the spare room.

 

[James]

What about the subs? Compact, affordable, outperform any speakers if you’re bass-sensitive

Subs are not plug and play, if you want seamless integration with your main loudspeakers. Sure, they can produce loads of bass, but out-perform any speakers? I don't think so.

 

[RJohan]

What about the subs? Compact, affordable, outperform any speakers if you’re bass-sensitive

As if I wasn't expecting the question... I use a sub with small speakers. Properly set up it's better than small speakers alone. Even better should be big speakers with big subs. You can always make good better.

 

[darrenyeats]

All depends on context. Ideally attack everything, source, amp, speakers, acoustics.

I did everything that I could within reason, except my source.

But an interesting used DAC option came up, I took a punt, and it's been so good that I'm actually outraged and embarrassed about what I could have had years ago! My mind is now open to other DACs but am always worried about making a mistake.

So my advice is, yes we all worry about making mistakes, but still, try things!

 

[Mark Packer]

In my experience, getting the right/best speakers for the room is the most important thing after that just feed them with decent signal and drive them with a competent amplifier. If they can drive the room properly then every other change/upgrade can be quickly and easily assessed. FWIW, as far as I can tell for most of us, the room is the most expensive single component.

 

[RJohan]

In my experience, getting the right/best speakers for the room is the most important thing after that just feed them with decent signal and drive them with a competent amplifier. If they can drive the room properly then every other change/upgrade can be quickly and easily assessed. FWIW, as far as I can tell for most of us, the room is the most expensive single component.

Never thought about it that way, but of course, you are right. And just as the other HiFi components, expensive doesn't always equal better.

 

[les24preludes]

Personally I can’t stand the Naim approach. You can provide excellent power supplies within the box. The worst way I can imagine doing it is via an add on box and an umblilical lead. Bloody awful power supply engineering in my view.

There are at least 3 good reasons why external power supplies can be better

1. Weight. Many people can't or don't want to lift heavy equipment
2. Size of PSU. You can build a bigger no-compromise supply in a separate box
3. Separation of magnetic fields. You keep radiating components like big chokes away from sensitive signal circuitry.

Separate power supplies are common with high end tube equipment.

 

[Cupuacu]

I have many sets of speakers collected over decades of listening to music, and three rooms with hifi setups. None of the rooms have been assessed for sound quality - as a family we live in them, not obsess about room/speaker compatability. I simply swap speakers around so I don't get bored with any particular ones; none of the others in my house-hold give a damm about hifi, wouldn't want to know if there is any difference, and probably wouldn't notice anyway. The only system for personnel listening is the one in my office, which also houses my extensive bike collection - I use a pair of vintage B & O P45s hanging on the wall on the back of a Rotel 820BX. Sound great to my ears.

 

[Mike Hanson]

As for room matching, the most important factor is "Can the speaker fill the room with sound?" That's why I have the little stand-mounted Ergo IX in my office, and the large Klipsch Cornwall IV in my family room.

Many are commenting on the need for DSP. I suppose if there are terrible room mode, then that would help. With all of my systems, I've never had a terrible time with that.

I'm not concerned about perfect frequency response, as our perception seems to be fairly flexible with that, and we adapt quickly to mild coloration.

Phase coherence is more of a problem, because our ears are easily irked by problems in that domain. That's why we want to sit in the "sweet spot"; first reflections are so troublesome; and subwoofer phase adjustments are so beneficial.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

FWIW For me the speakers and room are the big variable you need to get about right. (Inc details like speaker placement and listening chair position.) I'm currently using a modest CA amp with my ESLs and the combo sounds fine. In another room an Armstrong 626 with some LS3/5As sounds good, but less so as the room is cluttered and the listening positions awkward.

 

[Phyztech]

Speaker and listening position for sure need to be optimised however those are…well, basics. Its no so about system development, any system needs such steps.

 

[Jazzer]

There are at least 3 good reasons why external power supplies can be better

1. Weight. Many people can't or don't want to lift heavy equipment
2. Size of PSU. You can build a bigger no-compromise supply in a separate box
3. Separation of magnetic fields. You keep radiating components like big chokes away from sensitive signal circuitry.

Separate power supplies are common with high end tube equipment.

There are reasons why a separate PSU can be better in some circumstances, especially with pre amps, but if you want real grip and current on demand, as you usually do in a power amp, then a power supply as close as possible to the source is the best way to do it. IMHO.
I know that several manufacturers produce external supplies but that doesnt mean that I have to believe that they are right,
I simply won’t buy their products.
A lot of people bash linn for their marketing philosophy.
I agree, but I also feel the same about Naim, especially where their add on power supplies are concerned.

I know very little about valve amps but the few that I have auditioned at home had conventional supplies within each box.

 

[music fiend]

In my experience, getting the right/best speakers for the room is the most important thing after that just feed them with decent signal and drive them with a competent amplifier. If they can drive the room properly then every other change/upgrade can be quickly and easily assessed. FWIW, as far as I can tell for most of us, the room is the most expensive single component.

What is a competent amplifier can be quite difficult to define a priori IME.

I remember well a pair of Avalon Ideas driven by an Accuphase E460. The owner thought that the Accuphase was more than competent to drive the Avalons. But one day he tested a Nagra Classic power amp and the end result was surprising as it was almost as if the Avalons were different speakers, transformed for the better.

 

[tuga]

There are reasons why a separate PSU can be better in some circumstances, especially with pre amps, but if you want real grip and current on demand, as you usually do in a power amp, then a power supply as close as possible to the source is the best way to do it. IMHO.

You'll have a hard time supporting your HO with hard evidence though.
A PSU located 10 metres away will still provide "real grip and current on demand" (I suppose you mean adequate power) as long as the umbilical cord meets the required parameters.

I know that several manufacturers produce external supplies but that doesnt mean that I have to believe that they are right,
I simply won’t buy their products.
A lot of people bash linn for their marketing philosophy.
I agree, but I also feel the same about Naim, especially where their add on power supplies are concerned.

That's a different story.
An external PSU could be an interesting upgrade path but only if priced adequately.

 

[NickofWimbledon]

Surely there is no useful answer to this if we stick to generalisations.

If I was making one upgrade to the apparently balanced system in Wimbledon, I would probably keep sources and speakers and power amp unchanged and would change my Naim 52 pre-amp for a s/h 552.

If I were changing one thing on the apparently balanced system in the Tasmanian cottage, I would probably add a separate nDAC to the ND5XS2 streamer.

In both cases, the speakers would be nowhere near top of the list if I wanted to improve sound quality. However, they would be top of the list if I wanted to change the character of the sound or if a change to either room meant that sound was suddenly less enjoyable.

I don’t think One Size Fits All here (whatever the title of a Zappa LP might suggest).

 

[Jazzer]

You'll have a hard time supporting your HO with hard evidence though.
A PSU located 10 metres away will still provide "real grip and current on demand" (I suppose you mean adequate power) as long as the umbilical cord meets the required parameters.



That's a different story.
An external PSU could be an interesting upgrade path but only if priced adequately.

I agree on both counts, to a degree.
But 50 years in electronics, design, test and manufacture gives me the belief that an external supply is not the best way to power an amplifier.
If you throw enough money at it then I’m sure that good results can be achieved with an external PSU but it still isn’t the best way to do it.
Your beliefs may differ, as always.

 

[NickofWimbledon]

I agree on both counts, to a degree.
But 50 years in electronics, design, test and manufacture gives me the belief that an external supply is not the best way to power an amplifier.
If you throw enough money at it then I’m sure that good results can be achieved with an external PSU but it still isn’t the best way to do it.
Your beliefs may differ, as always.

Was it Mark Twain who said: “All generalisations are false, including this one”.

I am sure that there are possible arguments for a separate PS box and also against. Surely what matters is how your perception and enjoyment of the music is changed.

With Naim, I put up with the scorn of paying for a box to (as a girlfriend put it) “pre-wash your electricity” because adding a Hicap to a 72/140 made the music quite a lot better.

More recently, I got to compare using a Hicap on a Naim 82 preamp with using the more expensive Supercap.

Most recently, we compared NDX2 streamer for SQ with and without separate XPSDR power - an example that might make even loss sense at first glance than adding a PS to a pre-amp.

In every case, I was the only one that knew what was plugged in, but everyone filed into and out of my living room to collect in the kitchen and found we had uniform views. What was agreed in each case was that ( after 40-ish years) Naim boxes still benefit audibly from a separate PS.

If other makers have succeeded in being so good that an extra box brings no upgrade, or if going down that road would require attempting to re-educate their existing happy customers en masse, that doesn’t change what we found with the specific example of Naim.

Given your views, how do you feel about people hearing differences between different (say) LP12 power supplies?

 

[tuga]

Given your views, how do you feel about people hearing differences between different (say) LP12 power supplies?

That's a totally different story.

 

[Jazzer]

Was it Mark Twain who said: “All generalisations are false, including this one”.

I am sure that there are possible arguments for a separate PS box and also against. Surely what matters is how your perception and enjoyment of the music is changed.

With Naim, I put up with the scorn of paying for a box to (as a girlfriend put it) “pre-wash your electricity” because adding a Hicap to a 72/140 made the music quite a lot better.

More recently, I got to compare using a Hicap on a Naim 82 preamp with using the more expensive Supercap.

Most recently, we compared NDX2 streamer for SQ with and without separate XPSDR power - an example that might make even loss sense at first glance than adding a PS to a pre-amp.

In every case, I was the only one that knew what was plugged in, but everyone filed into and out of my living room to collect in the kitchen and found we had uniform views. What was agreed in each case was that ( after 40-ish years) Naim boxes still benefit audibly from a separate PS.

If other makers have succeeded in being so good that an extra box brings no upgrade, or if going down that road would require attempting to re-educate their existing happy customers en masse, that doesn’t change what we found with the specific example of Naim.

Given your views, how do you feel about people hearing differences between different (say) LP12 power supplies?

I don’t doubt that you and your friends heard differences between various PSU add ons.

I simply believe that that is not the best way to build an amplifier and would not choose to buy a product that starts at the bottom of its performance capability with a view to upgrading it later.
It would constantly leave me with a feeling of dissatisfaction, but that is just me.
Linn Majik is a good example of this, even though I use an older Lp12.

I would prefer to save and buy a product that was designed to be the best it could be within its cost and design capabilities.
A properly designed and built in PSU, when applied to a power amp, will always be better than an add on, IMHO.

 

[Mick P]

You pays your money, you gets your system and if you like it, job done with nothing to moan about.