Teddy Ray
pfm Member
no it isnt.
it is one of the very few things that make a difference...and a REAL one
Busker
- Thread starter Steven Toy
- Start date
no it isnt.
it is one of the very few things that make a difference...and a REAL one
You've jumped the shark, yet again. Clueless.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
Blzebub,
Remind me again, what room treatment you use to tame that colossal room of yours?
Ian,
Like the Devil my room is fine. The sofa actually helps, as stated in the OP.
Remind me again, what room treatment you use to tame that colossal room of yours?
Ian,
Like the Devil my room is fine. The sofa actually helps, as stated in the OP.
htm_1968
pfm Member
Like most of us, I would suggest that the answer to the treatment question is to carefully buy half decent kit (or event decent kit) demoed to suit the space. Granted a careful approach to setting the kit up helps, but treatments should provide at best a second order effect.....
Great thread this, highly amusing in places.
Five large rugs (one on the wall behind the listening position), two colossal sofas, two very large bookcases (one filled with records, the other with books), paintings on the walls, three large CD storage cabinets, two small tables, four enormous heavy velvet curtains, and concealed compressed paper damping panels around the room. It's a very benign room, as Ian Wright will confirm.
A small room like yours is never going to be good without treatment.
A small room like yours is never going to be good without treatment.
Teddy Ray
pfm Member
that is absolutely, undeniably *wrong*
room treatments are the biggest, most noticable upgrade ANYONE can effect on their space. the differences far outweigh *any* other change. by miles.
Teddy Ray
pfm Member
yep. the smaller the room, the more treatment needed. a bit of a paradox, but true
S-Man
StrivingON
No idea which team I'm in, but in this situation I would remove all the audiophile "enhancements" and listen to the system with standard mains cables, no mains conditioners and cheapo interconnects.
IME all of these expensive items are capable of adding colouration and reducing dynamics. It seems that some people hear this colouration and reduced dynamic range as more detail and more tonal colour etc.
(Sorry, I think I've got this thread mixed up with the Ian Walker thread. I'm so confused)
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
All this demonstrates is the egomaniacal tendency in the contemporary classical music profession (and in most contemporary arts). A humbler musician would have played music which commuters wanted to hear. Something which lifts their spirits rather than this melancholia. It's about the music, not the musician. I'm on the commuters' side. The last thing I would want on the way to or from the office is a reminder of all the woes of this vale of tears.
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Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
To re-cap:
The room is 5 x 3.5 m, the speakers fire down the length. The walls are solid brick all round and the floor is solid concrete. There are three large framed prints; one behind the system and two behind the listening sofa situated 30 cm from the rear wall. The sofas have been shown, by their absence during the first month of living here, to soak up room reflections. The floor is carpeted throughout on underlay and there is a rug on top. In the corner on the right between the two sofas is a lamp table. On the left is another stand housing the Virgin TV box and DVD player. A large coffee table sits on the rug, the TV hangs from the wall above the fireplace and replaces a mirror mentioned in the OP. There are 2 windows on the right wall behind the larger of the two sofas with lined curtains not fashionable blinds.
The room is not an issue and has enabled the system to show up all the system changes I have made over the last six years. I have considered and tried placing the speakers across the room from the TV wall but that was boomy due to there being a bit of an alcove to the left of the listening position. I could fill this space with shelves and books etc but I still may not like the result after all the work. I have discussed with my wife moving the hi-fi rack and consumer unit to the right-hand corner where the lamp table so now sits so there is nothing between the speakers and she's given that one the thumbs-up. Nobody who has been here to have a listen has subsequently stated that the sofa on the right needs to move. One person who came here stated independently on this forum that this is non-critical. Whatsnext thinks he's lying in order to be polite but WN can safely be ignored.
I could get the room measured properly to determine the exact nature of any room modes but I doubt it would make a massive difference. If the listening sofa was right up against the rear wall I would consider using diffusers like Robert uses on that wall.
The room does fine; it sounds like a reasonably well-damped domestic room rather than an anechoic chamber. Experience tells me that a bass overhang issue can sometimes be cured by using an amplifier with more control, a source component that provides better bass definition and using decent supports. This isn't always the case and quite often it genuinely is the room but it is worth not jumping to hasty conclusions. If there is a boom at one particular frequency it will likely be a room mode. If the bass overhang is over a much wider frequency range, perhaps extending into the lower mid, it is likely to be an issue of insufficient control over the speakers. If there is just a slight "bloom" it will likely be a smearing effect within the system itself that can be addressed by better isolation of components.
All of the above is based on personal experience. When I went to audition the Audiolab CDQ at Superfi in Brum I took my amps with me. When I arrived the CDQ was hooked up to a Creek amplifier and a pair of Tannoy 6-inch Dual Concentric floor-standers that were selling at just over half-price, I believe, because the guys at the shop found it difficult to get them to work properly in the demo room. The system sounded boomy so I tried to re-position the speakers and adjust the spikes but to no avail.
We then swapped my own anplifiers in and the bass boom was completely gone. The speakers also "disappeared" into a deep soundstage and the shop assistant's jaw fell open...
The moral of the tale quite simply is engage the brain before jumping to conclusions; forget your political/theoretical/philosophical standpoint and just listen. Listening doesn't come with a cast-iron guarantee but then nothing apart from death is certain in this world. If an audible change is really really ****ing obvious, as with swapping the amps on that day at Superfi, it is probably real.
That does for me.
Absolutely awesome Steven...
You are truly the Messiah, Guru, Master, god and general all knowing, all singing, all dancing mega man.
Is that what you want to hear?
Go on now, be honest...
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
Do you think your post served any purpose? If so would you mind telling me what it is?
It just looks like pointless, irrelevant (although in no way offensive) ad-hominem to me. I would imagine something like that being uttered by a spotty teenager whose voice was breaking trying to be the classroom clown, with his school tie undone and his ink-stained shirt hanging out beneath his jumper.
It just looks like pointless, irrelevant (although in no way offensive) ad-hominem to me. I would imagine something like that being uttered by a spotty teenager whose voice was breaking trying to be the classroom clown, with his school tie undone and his ink-stained shirt hanging out beneath his jumper.
Steven,
James does have a benign room. Although it was a long time ago when I last heard music being played in it. I will get an opportunity to see James again shortly so will have another listen and will, if he is okay with it, try measuring his room.
In your case i have no doubt that moving the sofa etc helped improve the sound. but that doesn't mean that you have removed any of the resonant modes, because you can't have by doing what you have done. Those modes are still there and they still have the biggest detrimental effect on the sound that you are hearing.
Now I can understand that you don't want to listen to others, especially on a Hi-Fi forum who suggest something different to your current thinking, perhaps because you see them as just having a go at you, But there are enough people who have experienced this on here to know that the room is a big negative on the sound that you are hearing.
Anyway there is little point trying to convince you to try something that you would really benefit from as you just don’t seem to want to listen to others on PFM, who have real experience of this.
Ian
James does have a benign room. Although it was a long time ago when I last heard music being played in it. I will get an opportunity to see James again shortly so will have another listen and will, if he is okay with it, try measuring his room.
In your case i have no doubt that moving the sofa etc helped improve the sound. but that doesn't mean that you have removed any of the resonant modes, because you can't have by doing what you have done. Those modes are still there and they still have the biggest detrimental effect on the sound that you are hearing.
Now I can understand that you don't want to listen to others, especially on a Hi-Fi forum who suggest something different to your current thinking, perhaps because you see them as just having a go at you, But there are enough people who have experienced this on here to know that the room is a big negative on the sound that you are hearing.
Anyway there is little point trying to convince you to try something that you would really benefit from as you just don’t seem to want to listen to others on PFM, who have real experience of this.
Ian
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
Ian, I am open-minded and I know you are not having a go. If you are in the area, pop in, have a listen. I am open to suggestions made in-situ. I consider your approach to be most thorough, based 100% on experience and not on any orthodoxy or axe to grind.
"The room does fine; it sounds like a reasonably well-damped domestic room rather than an anechoic chamber. Experience tells me that a bass overhang issue can sometimes be cured by using an amplifier with more control, a source component that provides better bass definition and using decent supports. This isn't always the case and quite often it genuinely is the room but it is worth not jumping to hasty conclusions. If there is a boom at one particular frequency it will likely be a room mode. If the bass overhang is over a much wider frequency range, perhaps extending into the lower mid, it is likely to be an issue of insufficient control over the speakers. If there is just a slight "bloom" it will likely be a smearing effect within the system itself that can be addressed by better isolation of components."
The room modes cannot be controlled by what you have described above. They are a function of the room. Once you put energy in around that frequency the room resonates. There is nothing your kit can do about that. They can be made worse by putting kit in the room that has a poorly controlled frequency response in that region. Which therefore puts even more energy into the wrong frequency range, so switching to better controlled kit may be what you did and so you heard an improvement. But the modes are still there, making the sound much worse than it could be.
There are two ways to resolve this. Firstly through tuned narrow band helmholtz absorbers or through a system like Trinnov. I have experience of the former working in every case, but no experience of the latter. In the future I am sure the latter will work very well, even if it doesn't now. But for now I would go with the narrow band absorbers.
Ian
The room modes cannot be controlled by what you have described above. They are a function of the room. Once you put energy in around that frequency the room resonates. There is nothing your kit can do about that. They can be made worse by putting kit in the room that has a poorly controlled frequency response in that region. Which therefore puts even more energy into the wrong frequency range, so switching to better controlled kit may be what you did and so you heard an improvement. But the modes are still there, making the sound much worse than it could be.
There are two ways to resolve this. Firstly through tuned narrow band helmholtz absorbers or through a system like Trinnov. I have experience of the former working in every case, but no experience of the latter. In the future I am sure the latter will work very well, even if it doesn't now. But for now I would go with the narrow band absorbers.
Ian
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Ian you are wasting your time, I would be interested to see any measurements of Bubs room,perhaps with and without the speaker stands.
KR Keith.
KR Keith.
That is entirely down to James (will discuss with him in person if not on here) and other visitors.
Although I should add that whilst I understand that physics of all this and have some experience of making it work from a practical perspective (listening and tube tuning), getting an acoustician to do it is by far the best way. My experience to date suggests that the measurements help you but it does require experience to know what frequencies need to be targeted, and how to do this as the room interactions can be more complicated than they initially appear.
Ian
Although I should add that whilst I understand that physics of all this and have some experience of making it work from a practical perspective (listening and tube tuning), getting an acoustician to do it is by far the best way. My experience to date suggests that the measurements help you but it does require experience to know what frequencies need to be targeted, and how to do this as the room interactions can be more complicated than they initially appear.
Ian
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
There is no more utterly closed 'I am right all the time' mind than yours on the entire forum Steven, perhaps the entire web.
Just about every post of yours confirms it.
Sooooooo self blind.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
To add: isn't the word self before blind more than a little superfluous?
How's the hernia doing btw; have you got one yet or are you still working on it?