Brexit: give me a positive effect... XV

[Spraggons Den]

Who needs Woodhouse when we have Enfield Boy..

 

[Enfield boy]

I think it's Wodehouse unless you're thinking of another?

 

[Seeker_UK]

I think it's Wodehouse unless you're thinking of another?

??

 

[eternumviti]

Must try harder, the pandemic doesn't provide cover for labour shortages on this scale that began before it, nor self imposed friction at borders, or selling out our own people or an oven ready NI deal that never was. I understand the reluctance to face the consequences of a stupid call.

The price of the easy availability of cheap labour, and the absence of border friction in movement of goods, was compulsory membership of an unnaccountable and actively anti-democratic institution that was devoted to the progressive and unconsensual accrual of power to the centre and away from the regions, and thus the demos itself. This is a form of blackmail. Voters made a judgement call on this during the referendum on continued membership, and more concluded that the EU had overplayed its hand than thought it acceptable to continue to export accountability in exchange for the fabricated advantages, none of which in reality truly needed an imperium to provide them, and most of which were available before the imperium was founded.

Its complicated, but what it boils down to is actually quite simple. I'm foxed at your inability to grasp this.

 

[Enfield boy]

??

Oooops, I really have had too much red tonight. Shame it's not Lebanese (resin) I might've had a better sense of humour (or more sense/and sadly munchies/ paraaaaanooiiaagh!)

 

[TheDecameron]

We voted (Brexit) out 5 years ago.

Covid is recent.

Brexit pre-dates it even though it still hasn't really happened.

So far, it (Brexit) looks more than a bit shit, though covid is pants too.

Industry quantified the effect, in two phases. The initial flight of EU workers after Brexit with Covid later causing the remainder to return to the EU.

 

[Enfield boy]

Sadly the hospitality and farming industries don't appear to have fully come to terms with these realities yet, in spite of the NFU and Lord Martin of Spoons and Distant Khazis being in the vanguard.

 

[Cav]

The price of the easy availability of cheap labour, and the absence of border friction in movement of goods, was compulsory membership of an unnaccountable and actively anti-democratic institution that was devoted to the progressive and unconsensual accrual of power to the centre and away from the regions, and thus the demos itself. This is a form of blackmail. Voters made a judgement call on this during the referendum on continued membership, and more concluded that the EU had overplayed its hand than thought it acceptable to continue to export accountability in exchange for the fabricated advantages, none of which in reality truly needed an imperium to provide them, and most of which were available before the imperium was founded.

Its complicated, but what it boils down to is actually quite simple. I'm foxed at your inability to grasp this.

Now we are all convinced that that is why you voted to leave, you have said as much many, many times, even though someone on acid would be hard pressed to imagine the world you live in.

You don't like the EU and voted accordingly; I doubt many of the others who did shared your rather peculiar paranoia.

 

[PsB]

The price of the easy availability of cheap labour, and the absence of border friction in movement of goods, was compulsory membership of an unnaccountable and actively anti-democratic institution that was devoted to the progressive and unconsensual accrual of power to the centre and away from the regions, and thus the demos itself. This is a form of blackmail. Voters made a judgement call on this during the referendum on continued membership, and more concluded that the EU had overplayed its hand than thought it acceptable to continue to export accountability for the fabricated advantages, none of which in reality truly needed an imperium to provide them, and most of which were available before the imperium was founded.

Its complicated, but what it boils down to is actually quite simple. I'm foxed at your inability to grasp this.

- Membership of the EU is not compulsory. Member states have to apply and do so voluntarily. MS are also free to leave, as so brilliantly and ably demonstrated by the UK in recent years.
- You have used the word "unconsensual" several times recently (been reading too much about the Maxwell trial?) in conjunction with the transition from the EEC to the EU, but you know yourself this is rubbish: all member states approved according to their own constitutional requirements. To take an example at random, Britain, these treaties were approved by majorities in Parliament, even though Major had to face down The Bastards. There can't be a higher level of approval than Parliament in a Parliamentary democracy, can there?
- The blackmail exists mostly in your imagination. One person's blackmail is another person's enlightened tradeoff, in the finest British tradition of compromise and give-and-take.
- The UK is providing everybody with a controlled experiment in how easily a country can do without these fabricated advantages and return to the nirvana of the late 70s and 80s. Early evidence is, erm, mixed, but we are instructed by Rees-Mogg that half a century is the right perspective on these things, so we'll have to wait and see.
- I see the EU has gone from quasi-imperium to imperium in the last couple of days. I really hope the rot stops there and we can avoid the 4th Reich.

"Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler". The simple truth is that the EU is a pretty complicated construction in terms of its objectives, its institutions, and its benefits and drawbacks. In other words, the last sort of thing you would want to submit to a referendum.

 

[Brian]

The trolling has a brief gap when attention is drawn to it. Often takes the double tap format when the target complains-

Brian:

response:

Double tap format? Target complains?

You seem to have quite an issue going on there, needing to search for what I guess are supposed to be comments I’ve made sometime between yesterday and 2003?

Moving on from your latest diversion to what you posted earlier.
Why should brexit have “lessened the impact on productivity of covid”? Yes, I know that’s a bit mangled but your words.

 

[TheDecameron]

- Membership of the EU is not compulsory. Member states have to apply and do so voluntarily. MS are also free to leave, as so brilliantly and ably demonstrated by the UK in recent years.
- You have used the word "unconsensual" several times recently (been reading too much about the Maxwell trial?) in conjunction with the transition from the EEC to the EU, but you know yourself this is rubbish: all member states approved according to their own constitutional requirements. To take an example at random, Britain, these treaties were approved by majorities in Parliament, even though Major had to face down The Bastards. There can't be a higher level of approval than Parliament in a Parliamentary democracy, can there?
- The blackmail exists mostly in your imagination. One person's blackmail is another person's enlightened tradeoff, in the finest British tradition of compromise and give-and-take.
- The UK is providing everybody with a controlled experiment in how easily a country can do without these fabricated advantages and return to the nirvana of the late 70s and 80s. Early evidence is, erm, mixed, but we are instructed by Rees-Mogg that half a century is the right perspective on these things, so we'll have to wait and see.
- I see the EU has gone from quasi-imperium to imperium in the last couple of days. I really hope the rot stops there and we can avoid the 4th Reich.

"Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler". The simple truth is that the EU is a pretty complicated construction in terms of its objectives, its institutions, and its benefits and drawbacks. In other words, the last sort of thing you would want to submit to a referendum.

Unconsensual is an interesting one certainly in the Northern Ireland context.

Frost came to grief over the protocol and no matter how hard Truss hits the ground running (sic) https://www.theguardian.com/politic...thern-ireland-protocol?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

she’s up against the same problem- lack of consent. The majority of the public in N.Ireland have expressed contentment with the existing EU arrangements as have their elected representatives. Indeed the ‘Province’ is outperforming the U.K. in trade with Europe. It then begs the question- what are the government in London’s motives for continuing to use the population of the north of Ireland beyond stoking confrontation with the EU? Tearing up the existing agreement damages the economy of N.Ireland and goes against the democratic wishes of the majority there.

 

[NeilR]

I don’t get it at all as there are so many gammon-ultras in the party intent on the most destructive Brexit imaginable who’d jump at the role, e.g. Steve Baker, Little Mark Francois, Mr Potato Head Brigden etc.

I think these people are happier to carp on the sidelines. Give them the chance of any responsibility for anything and like most Brexiters, they will run a mile.

 

[Brian]

From the link in #311...

The minister co-authored a pamphlet with Labour’s Ed Miliband, Lib Dem leader Ed Davey and Green MP Caroline Lucas. They warned: “If Britain leaves Europe, our environment … will be starved of investment, bereft of protections and denied the leadership it needs.” Brexiters criticised it as scaremongering.

I hadn’t realised Truss had essentially shared a platform with the Green, Lucas.
She’s still a tory but obviously showed sense is possible by teaming up with Miliband on brexit. One can hope she may bring something that was beyond ‘Lardy the no-man Frost’.

While agreement with the EU on anything has turned out to be like getting blood out of a stone, all that seems to be needed is a sensible approach to customs checks between N.Ireland and GB. It surely can’t be that difficult to work this out? What else is causing an issue?

Whatever is agreed this time around will be the precedent for what Scots could be voting for should they succeed in getting a referendum out of the tories. People should be careful what they wish for.

 

[Brian]

We voted (Brexit) out 5 years ago.

Covid is recent.

Brexit pre-dates it even though it still hasn't really happened.

So far, it (Brexit) looks more than a bit shit, though covid is pants too.

With respect, you already know I dispute the 5 years. It ignores that years were spent arguing over whether we should leave or not and on what terms.

It may be boring, no doubt some will say trolling because they don’t agree, but here is why I say this.

Article 50 was not triggered until 29 Mar 2017, nearly a year after the referendum. The next +2 years was largely wasted with bickering and MPs putting party before country.

It’s worth reading through all of this again to refresh on just how much time was wasted arguing in Parliament.

I’m no expert on this but remember Meaningful votes and Indicative votes. I watched this all unfold daily. Bercow gave every opportunity for remain MPs to do the right thing and they were a majority.

In the two years since the government triggered Article 50, MPs had tabled numerous amendments to government motions and bills. While some of these had set out their preferred Brexit approach, many of the more recent amendments focused on the process of leaving the EU rather than the outcome itself. There was therefore no clarity over whether there was a sustainable majority in favour of any particular Brexit outcome.

The House of Commons rejected the government’s draft deal with the EU in January 2019, by a margin of 230 votes, and again on 12 March, by a smaller margin of 149. On 29 March the government was defeated on the Withdrawal Agreement by 58 votes. This meant that parliament was at an impasse: MPs did not support the government’s proposed deal, but had also previously voted in favour of a motion which ruled out a no-deal Brexit.

It has been disputed here that we had a remain cabinet and Parliament ahead of the referendum but see this BBC link on that.

Cabinet 24 remain, 6 leave.
Only 158 declared as leave supporters in Parliament.

There should have been a soft brexit without a doubt.

 

[tonerei]

From the link in #311...



I hadn’t realised Truss had essentially shared a platform with the Green, Lucas.
She’s still a tory but obviously showed sense is possible by teaming up with Miliband on brexit. One can hope she may bring something that was beyond ‘Lardy the no-man Frost’.

While agreement with the EU on anything has turned out to be like getting blood out of a stone, all that seems to be needed is a sensible approach to customs checks between N.Ireland and GB. It surely can’t be that difficult to work this out? What else is causing an issue?

Whatever is agreed this time around will be the precedent for what Scots could be voting for should they succeed in getting a referendum out of the tories. People should be careful what they wish for.

You seem to be completely unaware of what went on during the Brexit referendum which explains your belief that the remain side ran a bad campaign. It wasn't really just that people like yourself appear to have not engaged. I think that is how the leave vote won. A lot of people not saying you but a lot who voted leave never bothered to engage and pressed the wrong button. RTFM comes to mind.

But again you continue on with an ill informed comment which is straight from the Farage play book about getting blood from a stone. That more applies to a Tory or someone like Farage but because you are not informed you are happy to run with your beliefs.

Meanwhile in the here and now another damning statistic. Shocked at it really but maybe it was a trend prior to Brexit. Interesting detail in the article. NI is thriving due to protocol and closer connection to the EU. The pattern looks positive for Scottish independence so thing you are reading the tea leaves wrong again Brian.

'The share of British goods as a proportion of our total imports declined from 23% in 2015 to just above 7% last year'

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/20...hlights-sharp-decline-in-british-irish-trade/

 

[tonerei]

The trolling has a brief gap when attention is drawn to it. Often takes the double tap format when the target complains- Brian:
response:

You noticed?

 

[ks.234]

Brexit: Australia trade deal to cause £94m hit to UK farming, forestry and fishing, Government study reveals

I thought we left the EU to benefit UK industries? I never realised that the purpose of getting trade deals outside the EU was to undermine UK industries.

Silly me.

 

[Brian]

You seem to be completely unaware of what went on during the Brexit referendum which explains your belief that the leave side ran a bad campaign. It wasn't really just that people like yourself appear to have not engaged. I think that is how the leave vote won. A lot of people not saying you but a lot who voted leave never bothered to engage and pressed the wrong button. RTFM comes to mind.

But again you continue on with an ill informed comment which is straight from the Farage play book about getting blood from a stone. That more applies to a Tory or someone like Farage but because you are not informed you are happy to run with your beliefs.

Meanwhile in the here and now another damning statistic. Shocked at it really but maybe it was a trend prior to Brexit. Interesting detail in the article. NI is thriving due to protocol and closer connection to the EU. The pattern looks positive for Scottish independence so thing you are reading the tea leaves wrong again Brian.

'The share of British goods as a proportion of our total imports declined from 23% in 2015 to just above 7% last year'

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/20...hlights-sharp-decline-in-british-irish-trade/

Why on earth are you on about Farage? Like another member here, you refer to him a lot. Me? I pay no attention to him.

Yes, of course getting anything from the tories is like getting blood from a stone. It’s a given. That I disagree with the tories a whole lot more than you do ( I’m directly affected and you are not ) seems to have passed you by. It is irrelevant to how the EU has shown throughout to be intransigent, people here have called it ‘the rules’. This does not translate to supporting the tories or Farage, that you think it does goes a long way to explaining the general ill mannered tone of your posts. I suppose my earlier comment of two authoritarian regimes ( one being the tories ) went over your head as well.

Oh, and I didn’t say leave ran a bad campaign. I said remain ran a bad campaign, which obviously means I was aware of what went on during the brexit referendum (ahead of casting my vote). My comment is not ill informed, it is quite the opposite and I engaged a great deal ahead of the referendum, mainly because I live in the UK and had the opportunity of a vote.

 

[PsB]

Brexit: Australia trade deal to cause £94m hit to UK farming, forestry and fishing, Government study reveals

I thought we left the EU to benefit UK industries? I never realised that the purpose of getting trade deals outside the EU was to undermine UK industries.

Silly me.

In fairness, £94 million is a bit of a rounding error in the overall scheme of things. There is also something about a £225m hit to the semi-processed food sector, so the impact goes beyond the £94m.

 

[Tony L]

Check this out: Liz Truss used to be a Lib Dem (London Economic)!

So to recap: the Tories have placed a massively pro-EU ex-Lib Dem from a far-left/CND activist family into Johnson’s flagship election-winning gammon-ultra-nationalist ‘Get Brexit Done’ role. WTAF?

It has to be a) a strategy to sink her leadership challenge regardless of any collateral damage to the party, or b) they now realise Brexit is absolutely a no-win scenario and want to very rapidly shed their UKIP clothes. I don’t get it. What is going on here?

There is clearly a game afoot and I have no idea what it is. I absolutely detest the Conservative Party, I genuinely view them as a criminal endeavour, a gangster oligarchy, but they are not daft. There will be some logic to this even though I can’t see it at present.