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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XV

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TheDecameron said:
The man they should have sent to Brussels, he wouldn’t take any prisoners.



aMegoIM.jpg
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That is the same shade as BJ's wallpaper. I think Farrow and Ball call it "Gammon's Coronary"
 
Brian said:
Maybe you need to re-read some of those 11 million posts because the meaning has escaped you.

First, you do not know how I voted. You don’t know anything about how I voted. You just think you do.

I have not claimed I did not understand the remain core arguments. On the contrary, I recognise very well the benefits of EU membership but the remain campaign failed to get that message across to millions who do not. What I have said is the remain campaign was poor and among other things should have highlighted regional benefits of EU funding. It failed and that is worthy of criticism. It does not mean I am happy with it.

Being critical of anti-democracy types is not attacking remain arguments and is being very much on the right side of the line.

Believing we had to honour the result of the referendum does not mean I support brexit. I did not help enable the conditions for a hard brexit but supporting the LibDems definitely did. Obviously those who did that will want to sweep it under the carpet.

I did not spend years undermining the main opposition and the best chance of stopping brexit. Others did that and will want to ignore that too.

You won’t want to acknowledge any of this, but it’s really very clear. Some will get it, I’m sure.

I won’t be surprised now if you tell everyone I’m relaxed about the tories having all of these parties.
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With respect, Brian, I'm sure that many of the millions who voted to leave the EU were perfectly well aware of the benefits of membership. They just felt that, on balance, the positives were outweighed by the negatives. The latter were by and large premised around the continuous and illegitimate accrual of power by the unaccountable institutions of Brussels since the EEC was morphed into the EU, without consent, by the twin Treaties of Maastricht and Lisbon. Brexit voters were aware that the advantages of membership largely predated the EU itself, and that those advantages did not therefore need to be incumbent upon membership of an unaccountable and actively anti-democratic supranational imperium.
 
eternumviti said:
With respect, Brian, I'm sure that many of the millions who voted to leave the EU were perfectly well aware of the benefits of membership. They just felt that, on balance, the positives were outweighed by the negatives. The latter were by and large premised around the continuous and illegitimate accrual of power by the unaccountable institutions of Brussels since the EEC was morphed into the EU, without consent, by the twin Treaties of Maastricht and Lisbon. Brexit voters were aware that the advantages of membership largely predated the EU itself, and that those advantages did not therefore need to be incumbent upon membership of an unaccountable and actively anti-democratic supranational imperium.
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Most of them probably thought Maastricht was a type of window adhesive. The deal on offer, the one they accepted at referendum was cake and eat it, £350m a week to the nhs, all the trade and economic benefits without paying subs and taking the rules.
 
eternumviti said:
With respect, Brian, I'm sure that many of the millions who voted to leave the EU were perfectly well aware of the benefits of membership. They just felt that, on balance, the positives were outweighed by the negatives. The latter were by and large premised around the continuous and illegitimate accrual of power by the unaccountable institutions of Brussels since the EEC was morphed into the EU, without consent, by the twin Treaties of Maastricht and Lisbon. Brexit voters were aware that the advantages of membership largely predated the EU itself, and that those advantages did not therefore need to be incumbent upon membership of an unaccountable and actively anti-democratic supranational imperium.
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Where did the acute labour shortages, sold out farming and fishing industries, border friction supply blockages, crops rotting in fields, pigs incinerated on farms, failed NI negotiations and plunging trade (£12bn EU trade in October alone) figure?

Outweighed my arse, fantasy promises with zero consequences more like. Who wouldn't think a free hit was worth a punt, except it never was.
 
Brian said:
Yes.

Do you support the efforts of remain MPs to have the referendum outcome ignored to the point they allowed a soft brexit or a second referendum to be lost?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
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No. I thought after the referendum that there would be enough common ground to arrive at some kind of soft Brexit, but there were too many egos clashing and the opportunity was lost, culminating in the completely barmy decision to let Johnson off the hook by voting for a General Election.
 
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eternumviti said:
With respect, Brian, I'm sure that many of the millions who voted to leave the EU were perfectly well aware of the benefits of membership. They just felt that, on balance, the positives were outweighed by the negatives. The latter were by and large premised around the continuous and illegitimate accrual of power by the unaccountable institutions of Brussels since the EEC was morphed into the EU, without consent, by the twin Treaties of Maastricht and Lisbon. Brexit voters were aware that the advantages of membership largely predated the EU itself, and that those advantages did not therefore need to be incumbent upon membership of an unaccountable and actively anti-democratic supranational imperium.
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I had the impression from tv interviews there were plenty who didn’t. Maybe they did. It’s just an impression mainly from the media because, I think as I’ve said before, it was never a major topic among my friends and colleagues ahead of the referendum. The odd remark was about it. Not much was said about it around me outside my own 4 walls.

In any case, the point I try to make regarding the remain campaign is the repeated straw clutching at the message on the red bus and the £350m per week while ignoring a major factor in remain losing the referendum was the incompetence of the remain campaign. Predictions of doom, predictions of economic growth being 4% less by 2030 than it would be if we remained was never going to sway people on the fence, neither was shouting at people on the likes of Question Time, broadcast to millions, that anyone considering voting leave was a racist dimwit.

I was very happy with the EEC. I’ve never liked the power grabbing and lack of accountability of the EU, I think all we need to do is trade but we do need to trade. Now we are out, once proper trade deals are in place and people understand what they are doing, I’ll become confident for the future for my kids. Dare I say what we need now in the UK is a better govt with the capacity to make agreements and be trusted. The tories are really not capable of that.

What I’ve found interesting over the last 5+ years has been the general intolerance around, how the country is more divided than ever and how two authoritarian ‘regimes’ have been unable to give an inch. It’s going to be a great educational study for future generations.
 
SteveS1 said:
Where did the acute labour shortages, sold out farming and fishing industries, border friction supply blockages, crops rotting in fields, pigs incinerated on farms, failed NI negotiations and plunging trade (£12bn EU trade in October alone) figure?

Outweighed my arse, fantasy promises with zero consequences more like. Who wouldn't think a free hit was worth a punt, except it never was.
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You do what you will with your arse, that's entirely your own business.

You've listed a loose combination of the current effects of leaving the EU, appalling governance over the manner in which we did so, and of the global effects of the pandemic. Some of these things are indeed associated with the unconsented splicing of a perfectly effective set of trading arrangements to an unconsented quasi-imperial ideology. What's your point?
 
eternumviti said:
You do what you will with your arse, that's entirely your own business.

You've listed a loose combination of the current effects of leaving the EU, appalling governance over the manner in which we did so, and of the global effects of the pandemic. Some of these things are indeed associated with the unconsented splicing of a perfectly effective set of trading arrangements to an unconsented quasi-imperial ideology. What's your point?
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Must try harder, the pandemic doesn't provide cover for labour shortages on this scale that began before it, nor self imposed friction at borders, or selling out our own people or an oven ready NI deal that never was. I understand the reluctance to face the consequences of a stupid call.
 
SteveS1 said:
Must try harder, the pandemic doesn't provide cover for labour shortages on this scale that began before it, nor self imposed friction at borders, or selling out our own people or an oven ready NI deal that never was. I understand the reluctance to face the consequences of a stupid call.
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The flight of EU workers out of Britain is well documented. Covid simply took the remaining few away. Had Brexit been the success it was claimed, surely it would have lessened the impact on productivity of Covid?
 
TheDecameron said:
The flight of EU workers out of Britain is well documented. Covid simply took the remaining few away. Had Brexit been the success it was claimed, surely it would have lessened the impact on productivity of Covid?
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How so?

Brexit was on 31st Jan 2020. Covid19 was already around, the clue is the 19. However, covid arrived in the UK on...31st Jan 2020.

Perhaps Covid was caused by brexit? :D :D

Stick to jokes about glue. Do you get it? Stick...glue...

Covid19 UK
Brexit

Edit: Must add, now we have left, making a success of leaving the EU ( EU/EEC membership for half a century) is not like flicking a switch.
 
We voted (Brexit) out 5 years ago.

Covid is recent.

Brexit pre-dates it even though it still hasn't really happened.

So far, it (Brexit) looks more than a bit shit, though covid is pants too.
 
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