Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIII

[eternumviti]

Oh dear. We're here again. Tell you what, I'll match you three for one, johnson lies to EU lies post brexit. Lies tm the johnson.
Actually the real rate is probably better than 100/1.

This isn't a bloody tennis match, ff1. Johnson fibs. The Pope's a Catholic. Bears poo in woods. Tomorrow comes after today. Night follows day. Tony L won't be voting for Johnson at the next GE. If Johnson doesn't deliver, neither will millions of people who voted Tory at the last one, and that includes me, a lifelong Tory voter. Its great to have that option, the one to hire and sanction those who run government policy, spend our taxes, and make our laws.

 

[SteveS1]

This isn't a bloody tennis match, ff1. Johnson fibs. The Pope's a Catholic. Bears poo in woods. Tomorrow comes after today. Night follows day. Tony L won't be voting for Johnson at the next GE. If Johnson doesn't deliver, neither will millions of people who voted Tory at the last one, and that includes me, a lifelong Tory voter. Its great to have that option, the one to hire and sanction those who run government policy, spend our taxes, and make our laws.

No it's not. Nor is it a game of anything the EU created for something to do with their time and annoy the people of NI. The only people it was and still is a game for are mainland Brexiteers.

Johnson pulled this stunt to get elected and to use your own phrase 'kick the can", well we have reached where it landed and it's consequences time. You continue to frame this in a way of half heartedly condemning huge domestic political lies, distortions and assurances while finger jabbing at others who do, accusing them of just thinking EU is beyond reproach. The truth is it so doesn't have to be, such is the corruption at the top of the UK.

Johnson signed up and told the population that he'd just landed the "deal that they said couldn't be done" when of course he did no such thing.

Blaming this shambles on the EU is ridiculous.

 

[eternumviti]

To answer the last first, if I knew that, I wouldn't be writing on this forum, I'd be rehearsing my Nobel Peace Prize speech in front of the mirror and perusing the Mercedes S-Class catalogue.

The big difference is that the Netherlands (with apologies to my Loyalist countrymen, William III notwithstanding) does not, and has never been a part of the UK, which, through the vagaries of history has been chopped into two bits, one of which bits belongs to the UK, the other not, and with a substantial portion of the population overall thinking that this doesn't make sense and having shed much blood over it. This has, in my opinion, resulted in a unique situation, which is not really comparable with the situation with continental Europe. The last land border with the Netherlands disappeared at the end of the Würm Glaciation 15,000 years ago, as opposed to the one with the EU that sprang up on the island of Ireland in a somewhat faster than glacial speed. Given the history of our island, this situation is not curable by pat (if you'll excuse the expression) solutions.

I realise that you regard the EU as the devil incarnate, and, yes, they can be pernickety about their single market rules, but this was never in doubt, and it was predictable that Brexit would cause problems, but Boris, it seems, has learned from Admiral Farragut in the American Civil War ("Damn the torpedoes! Full steam ahead!"). Brian above is right, it takes two to tango, but what happens when an apparently suitable tango has been concluded, the band has packed up and, slightly sozzled, is half-way out the door on the way home, when one of the dancers drags his partner back and wants to do it all again to a music score that the band hasn't even seen, never mind rehearsed?

I agree with you that, for the sake of my countrymen, both North and South, the EU should give a bit, but, putting aside, if you can, your hatred of all things EU, given the creatures with whom they are dealing, can you honestly blame them for hesitating to do so?

I enjoyed the brief history lesson, even the somewhat contorted analogising, but I'm afraid it's completely irrelevant to the point that I made, which was that, in regards of points of entry for goods into the EU, apparently there are more checks on the Irish Sea crossing, one of the EU's smallest points of entry (about 1% of goods excluding NI, where 4/5ths remain) than there are in Rotterdam, the EU's largest point of entry for goods.

This imposition is clearly almost entirely unnecessary. I ask again, if I may, perhaps more clearly. Do you not think it possible that it is a symptom of the European Commission throwing something of a tantrum/toys out of cot etc., at the effrontery of the UK for having left its party.

In that context I think it's reasonable to consider again who the actual grown ups are.

 

[SteveS1]

Some punitive tariffs will soon focus Liz Truss’s mind- she’ll be off to Tonga and Fiji to sign them up to four pallets of Jaffa Cakes a year.

 

[SteveS1]

apparently there are more checks on the Irish Sea crossing, one of the EU's smallest points of entry (about 1% of goods excluding NI, where 4/5ths remain) than there are in Rotterdam, the EU's largest point of entry for goods.

Another emotional but actually meaningless comparison without knowing what is sent and from where. Rotterdam is within the EU and not on the border of a non-EU country, nor does Holland have a land border with any non-EU countries. Even the most challenged accept that NI is not a normal border situation, which is why it had special focus from the off.

 

[wacko]

I enjoyed the brief history lesson, even the somewhat contorted analogising, but I'm afraid it's completely irrelevant to the point that I made, which was that, in regards of points of entry for goods into the EU, apparently there are more checks on the Irish Sea crossing, one of the EU's smallest points of entry (about 1% of goods excluding NI, where 4/5ths remain) than there are in Rotterdam, the EU's largest point of entry for goods.

This imposition is clearly almost entirely unnecessary. I ask again, if I may, perhaps more clearly. Do you not think it possible that it is a symptom of the European Commission throwing something of a tantrum/toys out of cot etc., at the effrontery of the UK for having left its party.

In that context I think it's reasonable to consider again who the actual grown ups are.

The Brexiteers loudly proclaimed that the UK would undercut the EU by cutting corners. The EU took note.

 

[TheDecameron]

It’s Krakatoa east of Hartlepool down at the Express:


BREXITEER outrage has erupted after Baroness Kate Hoey exposed attempts by the Republic of Ireland to worsen the ongoing rift between the EU and the UK.

Brexit outrage: Boris urged to hit back after Baroness Hoey exposes EU punishment plans

BRITAIN'S calls to renegotiate the Brexit deal has been rejected by Emmanuel Macron's key ally as the EU's fury rages.


Meanwhile,

 

[eternumviti]

No it's not. Nor is it a game of anything the EU created for something to do with their time and annoy the people of NI. The only people it was and still is a game for are mainland Brexiteers.

Johnson pulled this stunt to get elected and to use your own phrase 'kick the can", well we have reached where it landed and it's consequences time. You continue to frame this in a way of half heartedly condemning huge domestic political lies, distortions and assurances while finger jabbing at others who do, accusing them of just thinking EU is beyond reproach. The truth is it so doesn't have to be, such is the corruption at the top of the UK.

Johnson signed up and told the population that he'd just landed the "deal that they said couldn't be done" when of course he did no such thing.

Blaming this shambles on the EU is ridiculous.

Steve, every time you post, I hesitate to reply because it would involve having to go around the same old arguments. If I can somehow make it relatively brief, I blame Brexit on successive UK governments, most of them Tory, with particular distinction going to Heath, Major and Brown, the latter two for signing Maastricht and Lisbon without the consent of the electorate. I blame it on the EU for relentlessly pursuing its single objective of full political and economic union without, or on the very brink of, consent, and doing so by recourse to the construction of an elaborately anti-democratic institutional framework, with lies, concealment and obfuscation as institutionalised practice.

The 'current shambles' I blame on the May administration for refusing to consider EEA/EFTA options, then collapsing in front of every EU demand, from sequencing through to the utterly disastrous 'backstop', bequeathing a minority Johnson government a poisoned and hopeless legacy, and on the EU and its powerful allies in Government, Whitehall and business who, amongst their manifold efforts to contain the UK either within the EU or within the EU's regulatory sphere, weaponised the Irish border, and continue to do so.

The NIP got Johnson through the logjam thus created, and gave him a majority. I believe that he should not have then signed the WA/NIP. Not to have done so would have been an act of brinkmanship to which your side of the debate would have been bitterly opposed, as it would have, theoretically, destroyed any chance of achieving a trade deal with the EU within the available time frame. Johnson bottled it. There is, however, also a chance that the EU would have ultimately conceded the deal, for as the French FM said to his Parliament at the time, Brexit without a deal may well have signed the death knell for the EU.

Blaming the 'current shambles' substantially on the EU is everything but 'ridiculous'. The Irish border question could have been quietly and sensibly resolved early on had the EU not chosen to use it a a cudgel with which to beat Brexit, and to contain the UK within its regulatory sphere. Its current conduct over the protocol, and its insistence upon a completely unnecessary and maximalist interpretation, clearly demonstrates that it has no intention of giving up on these efforts.

 

[TheDecameron]

Another emotional but actually meaningless comparison without knowing what is sent and from where. Rotterdam is within the EU and not on the border of a non-EU country, nor does Holland have a land border with any non-EU countries. Even the most challenged accept that NI is not a normal border situation, which is why it had special focus from the off.

Anyone who’s ever travelled between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain during British government direct rule and before the EU joined other partners in assisting the peace process will know all about lengthy, intrusive checks and delays at ports- put there exclusively by the British government.

The hula hoop display ‘Lord’ Frost is putting on with nonsense like maximalism and purism and his stated concern that Ulstermen’s rights to eat sausages from Norfolk (sic) are being taken away are a pointless exercise. Who exactly is the intended audience? I presume it’s people who get their information from the side of a big red bus.

 

[eternumviti]

Another emotional but actually meaningless comparison without knowing what is sent and from where. Rotterdam is within the EU and not on the border of a non-EU country, nor does Holland have a land border with any non-EU countries. Even the most challenged accept that NI is not a normal border situation, which is why it had special focus from the off.

FFS, it isn't meaningless at all. Rotterdam is the EU's major point of entry for goods into the EU. It is thus on the border with every non-EU nation in the world! The Irish border is minuscule to the point of irrelevance by comparison.

Of course the Irish border is not a normal situation, but that in absolutely no way whatsoever justifies the disproportionate number of checks on goods. Au contraire, it justifies an infinitely more delicate touch, does it not?

 

[PsB]

BREXITEER outrage has erupted after Baroness Kate Hoey exposed attempts by the Republic of Ireland to worsen the ongoing rift between the EU and the UK.

Brexit outrage: Boris urged to hit back after Baroness Hoey exposes EU punishment plans

She's a baroness now? Ye gods.

 

[TheDecameron]

Clean Break Brexit- what plenty on the Tory benches were demanding. It’s the only way that’ll end this nonsense.

 

[eternumviti]

Anyone who’s ever travelled between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain during British government direct rule and before the EU joined other partners in assisting the peace process will know all about lengthy, intrusive checks and delays at ports- put there exclusively by the British government.

The hula hoop display ‘Lord’ Frost is putting on with nonsense like maximalism and purism and his stated concern that Ulstermen’s rights to eat sausages from Norfolk (sic) are being taken away are a pointless exercise. Who exactly is the intended audience? I presume it’s people who get their information from the side of a big red bus.

Oh, I love that 'the EU joined other partners' in assisting the peace process. Float that one across Lord Trimble, holder of the Nobel Peace Prize for his part in achieving a peaceful settlement for NI.

 

[tonerei]

Anyone who’s ever travelled between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain during British government direct rule and before the EU joined other partners in assisting the peace process will know all about lengthy, intrusive checks and delays at ports- put there exclusively by the British government.

The hula hoop display ‘Lord’ Frost is putting on with nonsense like maximalism and purism and his stated concern that Ulstermen’s rights to eat sausages from Norfolk (sic) are being taken away are a pointless exercise. Who exactly is the intended audience? I presume it’s people who get their information from the side of a big red bus.

Remember all that. What misery. Travelling to Holyhead and being looked at as a terrorist. Pulled over bags checked. Where are you going? British army and RUC apprehending my wife and I down a country lane with guns drawn. All because we drove in and out of a small town and then headed back to where we were staying. Crime was we had a Southern reg motorcycle and we were acting suspiciously. Seems like stuff from another world.

EU and Good Friday agreement got rid of all that. Brexiteers are back to future by moving forward and reinstating isolationism.
Meanwhile the Weatherspooners gulp their beer and read the red tag crap and get all angry doing fxxk all.
EV from the comfort of middle England waxes about a past that in reality was more miserable than anyone cares to remember.

 

[TheDecameron]

Oh, I love that 'the EU joined other partners' in assisting the peace process. Float that one across Lord Trimble, holder of the Nobel Peace Prize for his part in achieving a peaceful settlement for NI.

Let’s see how he feels when the Conservative and Unionist Party finally sells off the Province to Ireland and effectively back to the EU. He seems like you, unable to recognise Johnson as author of the Irish Sea customs border and instead is citing a conspiracy between Ireland, the Catholic population of N.Ireland, the EU and he’s even included the US government now.

 

[TheDecameron]

Remember all that. What misery. Travelling to Holyhead and being looked at as a terrorist. Pulled over bags checked. Where are you going? British army and RUC apprehending my wife and I down a country lane with guns drawn. All because we drove in and out of a small town and then headed back to where we were staying. Crime was we had a Southern reg motorcycle and we were acting suspiciously. Seems like stuff from another world.

EU and Good Friday agreement got rid of all that. Brexiteers are back to future by moving forward and reinstating isolationism.
Meanwhile the Weatherspooners gulp their beer and read the red tag crap and get all angry doing fxxk all.
EV from the comfort of middle England waxes about a past that in reality was more miserable than anyone cares to remember.

Threats are being made, Trimble and Sammy Apoplectic Wilson are even citing them in a sly ‘just sayin’ manner. Threats of violence to port officials from some of Mr.Wilson’s constituents.
Johnson is the British Prime Minister, he is responsible for what happens on British sovereign territory, not members of an imagined foreign conspiracy.

 

[PsB]

Oh, I love that 'the EU joined other partners' in assisting the peace process. Float that one across Lord Trimble, holder of the Nobel Peace Prize for his part in achieving a peaceful settlement for NI.

You would perhaps object to the statement that the EU made the GFA possible. But it is clear to me and to many others that had the UK and Ireland not been part of the same Union, the GFA would have been impossible. The EU provided a framework where each side could realistically maintain appearances while getting on with the serious business of reducing violence, marginalizing the hardliners, opening borders, developing trade etc.

 

[ff1d1l]

This isn't a bloody tennis match, ff1. Johnson fibs. The Pope's a Catholic. Bears poo in woods. Tomorrow comes after today. Night follows day. Tony L won't be voting for Johnson at the next GE. If Johnson doesn't deliver, neither will millions of people who voted Tory at the last one, and that includes me, a lifelong Tory voter. Its great to have that option, the one to hire and sanction those who run government policy, spend our taxes, and make our laws.

If the johnson doesn't deliver, he'll spin it so it appears he has. Enough will believe for him, or a similar tory spiv, to retain power the way democracy is set up for them at the moment. At the moment democracy is effectively stolen and broken in your country, a little less in mine.

Edit...johnson fibs? FFS, ET.

 

[Kirk]

LMAO at this latest invention. Seems you still haven’t grown up after all this time.

Blair is not my hero. I don’t have any heroes.

I believe that despite errors, Blair did better for the ordinary person in this country than Wilson, Heath, Callaghan, Thatcher, Major, Brown, Cameron, May and Johnson, that PM list goes back a long time. That doesn’t make him a hero, just a better PM, imo. YMMV of course.

Do you dream about Thatcher and long for a return to the great wrecking of communities? Do you quietly admire Johnson? Is he your hero, ‘Kirk’?

Do you see what I did? Two can play at that game...

You seem to be in a constant sate of pathological agitation.

 

[Kirk]

If the johnson doesn't deliver, he'll spin it so it appears he has. Enough will believe for him, or a similar tory spiv, to retain power the way democracy is set up for them at the moment. At the moment democracy is effectively stolen and broken in your country, a little less in mine.

Edit...johnson fibs? FFS, ET.

Brexiteers have to downplay/ignore Boris's 'incontinent mendacity' to keep die große Lüge alive.